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WinBolo 1.16 Released
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sheeps



Joined: 24 Feb 2003
Posts: 527

PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys, thanks to all that worked on the release.

So is this where we post bug reports? Smile

For me, I lose all ammo/mines/trees/etc indication once I start playing, so I have no idea what my status is.

And my oh so common setup is: MacBook Pro 2.53 bootcamped with XP Pro.

I test it out some more to get a better idea what's going on though.
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Nemokrad



Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Posts: 573

PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You lose the status bars on XP? Thought that was only a Vista issue. The official bug reporting procedure is to create a new ticket on the trac here: http://www.winbolo.org/cgi-bin/trac.cgi
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Min



Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Posts: 1837

PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: pros and cons Reply with quote

Lancelot wrote:
fine and dandy but no big whoop
1. new interface starting screen- guess that denotes something new
2. pillbox fire rate - doesnt seem too different but ok.


Pill range was modified, pillfire rate was slowed slightly, you haven't noticed yet, because you obviously haven't done any pillbox takes yet were the pillfire rate is most noticeable. I think you'll appreciate it once you realize what its effected.

Lancelot wrote:
negative change
1. the tanks top speed is now too slow- this impairs dogfighting and just getting around the map and makes for getting stuck on terrain a lot more easily and annoying when you do get stuck. i think you need to bump up the horsepower to the old limit boys cause i cant drive 55!


Top speed has not be changed. So, if your seeing a change in it, your unfortunately mistaken. Tank acceleration was modified, not top speed. It now matches macbolo. Sorry if you got used to it being faster.

Min
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Alain



Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Posts: 455

PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all your work around WinBolo Elvis ! I will test it soon Smile
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zet



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 328

PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't you guys fix the lgm bug in 1.16... theres too many glitches.. just makes the new version shit..
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Min



Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Posts: 1837

PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zet wrote:
Didn't you guys fix the lgm bug in 1.16... theres too many glitches.. just makes the new version shit..


And this kind of statement is about as helpful as a kick in the balls, Which lgm bug are you referring to? we've had more than one, we had a lgm compass bug that was fixed, what exactly are you talking about? do you have a link to a gamelog that shows the behavior your having issues with? can you replicate it? do you even know what your talking about?

What glitches? be specific, explain exactly what your talking about, don't assume we know, because we probably don't.

Min
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F.U.B.A.R.



Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Posts: 510

PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zet wrote:
Didn't you guys fix the lgm bug in 1.16... theres too many glitches.. just makes the new version shit..


poof your fixed.

this new version was no easy task, and the time put into it was strictly voluntary. so before u call this new version "shit" maybe think about it a bit more. Idea
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Lancelot



Joined: 15 Mar 2003
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zets comments are not constructive, however they reflect perhaps a misconception about the goals of the winbolo team and those of the general player. I don't think most players realize what the current coders are doing is trying to replicate macbolo pretty much as it played in its last version so any and all changes they make are good in their view from that perspective. Since most current players of winbolo never played macbolo they are expecting the priority to be on fixing bugs and errors of the current game, not in duplicating macbolo.

i can say in some ways the new release is an improvement and in others i am left wanting for perhaps a different goal, to just make the best game period and not necessarily strive to just replicate macbolo. After testing version 1.15, 1.16 and macbolo this past weekend I have determined that:

1) version 1.15 acceleration is the best since it allows you to overcome bad terrain enough to give u a chance of surviving a decent number of encounters as to make it worth struggling to escape and not just accepting death when someone gets the drop on you.
2) macbolo deceleration is the best since you stop quite quickly and can line up takes and stop from going off into deep sea when u need to. version 1.16 is close to this and is probably fine.
3) version 1.16 does not have sufficient acceleration and needs to be tweaked to favor a little more get up and go and it looks like a little more top speed, esp on grass, swamp and rubble.
4) also while the tank slide is good i think that because the tank does not have enough acceleration you get pushed around a little too much compared to macbolo although i do like having it again i think it all comes down to tank acceleration.

I am still doing more testing to come up with quantifiable numbers of some kind but since the distances and speeds and very small im still trying to find the best method of measurement. I will however report back the results at some point. To players who are unhappy with the new version as i am (at least in this respect) i would advise posting your displeasure in a specific, rationale and polite way. The guys worked hard on this and i do understand that and if you dont like it theres still version 1.15 where u can host your own games (which i may do). anyway things will improve or they wont but either way lets stay civil.
Until next time, happy boloing....
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Min



Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Posts: 1837

PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lancelot wrote:
Since most current players of winbolo never played macbolo they are expecting the priority to be on fixing bugs and errors of the current game, not in duplicating macbolo.


Hey hey now, what makes you think fixing bugs isn't a priority????? The part you left out of this is ... making physics changes is -easy- fixing bugs is -hard-. We've been working on the bugs as we can, physics changes on the other hand are most of the time as simple as changing a single number! super easy. Bugs are much more difficult to narrow down. We've been working on the easy stuff first, harder stuff later. This version's main feature was the RSA key authentication.

Lancelot wrote:
1) version 1.15 acceleration is the best since it allows you to overcome bad terrain enough to give u a chance of surviving a decent number of encounters as to make it worth struggling to escape and not just accepting death when someone gets the drop on you.


Just trying to make it like macbolo. For us to try and 'make a better game' we'd all have to get together and -agree- on something. With this community, that isn't very likely. As it is we can't seem to agree on adding in things like pill massage and superboom.

Lancelot wrote:
3) version 1.16 does not have sufficient acceleration and needs to be tweaked to favor a little more get up and go and it looks like a little more top speed, esp on grass, swamp and rubble.


grass swamp and rubble speeds were not changed, they are the same as they've always been, which is clearly stated on stu's disseration, and tested on multiple occasions, I can practically guarantee that we won't be changing the top speeds in the game currently.

Lancelot wrote:
I am still doing more testing to come up with quantifiable numbers of some kind but since the distances and speeds and very small im still trying to find the best method of measurement. I will however report back the results at some point. To players who are unhappy with the new version as i am (at least in this respect) i would advise posting your displeasure in a specific, rationale and polite way. The guys worked hard on this and i do understand that and if you dont like it theres still version 1.15 where u can host your own games (which i may do). anyway things will improve or they wont but either way lets stay civil.
Until next time, happy boloing....


As far as physics changes are concerned, I'd recommend people just get used to it, I made as many changes as possible to minimize changes later on, if I end up slightly tweaking acceleration because I got it wrong, I doubt people will complain because its pretty close. If we end up tweaking slide, people won't complain because it will be minor. This is the version I expected people to bitch on, because so many things got changed at once.

If you notice a glitch, or a bug, or something weird, post as much information as possible so we can try to debug it! seriously, posting 'this version is crap because of glitchs' is not helpful, we don't know what that means, if you can repeatably cause a glitch to occur, document it, report it, so we can fix it!!!. We are actively fixing things, for example, I just fixed the invisiwall(invincible wall that looks like road) problem the other day, and I've been further investigating the pillbug(were you plant a pill and it becomes your enemies and starts shooting at you), I'm also working on the deep sea in the middle of the map issue that we are still seeing occasionally, If you've noticed the deep sea in the middle of the map on 1.16 let me know, I added some code to try and fix it before, and I don't know if it worked properly.

Min
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Sticks



Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Posts: 806

PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zet wrote:
Didn't you guys fix the lgm bug in 1.16... theres too many glitches.. just makes the new version shit..

Yes, the LGM bug should be fixed. And by LGM bug I mean two occurances.
    1. When your LGM compass points to NW mines. It's actually pointing to the map location of (0,0) - the origin basically.
    2. When you can see your LGM on the map, and your LGM compass points to where he's at but when you drive over him, you can't pick him up.

Both of these happened because your tank never received information about where your LGM was. And you never received information about your LGM because you never saw your LGMs parachute.

If you see another one, let me know, I'd be interested in seeing it happen. That being said, you can't always capture that as bot operators don't upload logs or even keep logs of games.

Lance, thanks for your feedback. The problem when you say "best" is, what does that mean? It's best based on what criteria? That it's easier to recover after someone screws up? Or is it because it's truer to MacBolo?

And therein lies the rub: where to go with WinBolo. It started out as a clone and we are simply following that up. For instance, now notice that you cannot build under your boat. In WinBolo versions pre-1.16 you could build road - or even a block - under your boat. Now you can't. Why? That's the way MacBolo did it.

Also with 1.16 we experienced some scope-creep. We completed what we thought should be done for that version and then kept going. The result is that we fixed some things that might not have been expected until 1.17 but were thrown in 1.16. It was supposed to be small fixes. I imagine if we stuck to the few goals we set for 1.16, it should have been released a month or so ago.
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Lancelot



Joined: 15 Mar 2003
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

by best i am only inferring that replicating macbolo may not always prove to create the greatest enjoyment and balance in the game. what i notice now from the decrease in speed/acceleration is that i tend to get stuck a lot more and no amount of skill will allow me to dogfight or manuever my way out of it. so the game no longer rewards skills in those areas. one thing the increased tank acceleration did was help overcome the tank "stickiness" that winbolo has and macbolo does not, so that when u got stuck to an ally or enemy you could use fast direction changes to try to twist away and survive. now its like mud and you just die. since one of my favorite things about bolo was just driving around i derive pretty much zero enjoyment from this version as a result. nothing will change this either but i thought id just offer the critique and see if others either now or later agree with me. if not then such is life. fortunately there are other games i like but i shall miss bolo even tho perhaps few shall miss me. ill still be around to chat with stimp and hell and perhaps a few more.

ciao boloers
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jhood



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 732

PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For some clarification:

The current version mainly addresses some security concerns we had with the source code being available to everyone. After Min added client authentication, we added a few extra features while waiting for the official release to be built and released.

Things might be changed or removed in the next version (possibly due out this spring) but mostly I want everyone to know that 1.16 wasn't released just to show off the new tank slide and base refuel rates. Also we're taking everything into consideration and invite anyone who wants to help to join the dev team on IRC and winbolo.org.
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Lancelot



Joined: 15 Mar 2003
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if i can measure some good data on the the tank speeds in the different versions and btw macbolo i will, but if no one else feels negatively about the change then its merely an existential excercise. thanks for your rapid responses tho. since ive been learning some C++ using visual studio this past year i had considered assisting but i dont know enough at this time to be useful and if im not going to be playing the game my enthusiasm for coding it prolly wont be as high as it should be. ill be interested to hear how the new version evolves and of course if anyone else gives feedback here, especially other experienced players, (besides the coders) that would be interesting as well.

tschüss and pröst!
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Nemokrad



Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Posts: 573

PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lance for once I agree with you. I do feel that the acceleration has lowered my enjoyment as well. In fact I did request a legacy option (1.15 physics) be integrated into 1.16 because I knew that it would alienate a lot of people and I felt that Winbolo had evolved into it's own game which people enjoyed, but instead I was just labelled a bitcher/whiner/preventing the development so I dropped my protest. But I do feel that over time it's something that you will adapt to and subconsciously begin to not notice the longer you play 1.16. I find it a bit odd that you are quitting Winbolo over it since you played Mac Bolo for so long. I think that if you were to continue playing 1.16 you would feel that it becomes less of an issue for you.

I also mulled over how to get exact measurements from Bolo physics and I am curious as to your work with that. My idea was to record screen movies of the different versions driving the same distance and time it. You could also try asking wharf-rat on #bolo because I believe he acquired some concrete info for nubolo.
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Min



Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Posts: 1837

PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I've said before lance, measure it, if there is a difference, we will adjust it. I tried to get it close, if its wrong, I'll fix it. Simple. Quitting because you think we got it wrong doesn't seem like a good solution.

I've spoken with wharf about it, I know a bit about the algorithm for acceleration/deceleration based on those discussions, and tried to use that information to get it close. I've tried to speak with him again about it, but he's rarely at his keyboard or watching the #bolo channel.

Min
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