Ren's Strategy Guide

Aug 22, 2004 04:41 Ren's Strategy Guide

Ren's Strategy Guide For Amateurs

Players have asked me what can they do to get better and well, it brought me to come up with this strategy guide for amateurs that want to get good.

So we begin…

• Don't send lgm (builder) if you know it will die / get killed / walled.

I start off with the biggest problem for most players. Losing your builder when you’re in the heat of a huge pill battle can cost you all those pills, and possibly bases. It’s best to make a short send to fake a repair, or if you don’t have a pill on your hands, pick up the pill and build it somewhere else. If you’re carrying an extra pill flanking is a great strategic move, because it covers more ground, saves a pill loss, and a builder loss.

• Don't play offensively if you less pills than your opponent.

When you’re down in pills, play defense. Set up a defensive pill line and earn some pills you may have lost earlier in the game, than resume playing offense. If you don’t play defense when you have a less amount of pills than your opponent you’re increasing the percentage of losing your own pills.

• Don't plant pills too far up if you know they will get shot.

When playing always make short sends with your builder. If you make a long send, or foolish send, you’re probably going to get your builder shot. Making a long send and losing your builder can cause you to lose a pill or many pills. So to stop your builder from getting shot, make a short send.

• Don't plant pills you can’t defend.

Some players end up planting pills all the way across the map, where they know they can’t defend it. This is mainly bad because if you try to support the spike, you’re out of reach of your bases for ammo and shield. It’s best to plant pills where you have highly fueled bases so you can access them easier without losing pills while you’re refueling. Another thing, don’t plant your pills behind enemy bases if you don’t plan on raping! This can be an easy take for some players because they can use their base as a shield from letting you shoot their builder.

A good defensive pill line setup:

• Support your pilltakes.

When attempting to do a pilltake, always have pills next to your pilltake so you can heat the other pills to prevent your opponent from sweeping to pick up their pill, and maybe yours! While you have extra pills to stop sweeps, you can get good aims on builders too, while attempting a pilltake!

• USE PILLVIEW!

Always use pill view. You can use this to see what’s going on with your pill line while you’re refueling or raping bases, or whatever you might be doing at the time. Some players prefer to listen for noise then go to where they here the sound, this is not good because you cannot see where they’re shooting, or how much damage they’ve done to your pills. Check what you currently have set your pill view key by holding down Control and K in your WinBolo game window.
Some cool pilltakes you can learn.

• Always play your best.

When playing a newbie, someone not as good as you, or anyone, always players your best. Playing cocky causes you to play cocky with those really good players your idol skill over!

You can find a game with all these skills incorporated here:
ftp://ftp.winbolo.us/upload -- It's called Strat Game.avi

To view this Strategy Guide with *PICTURES* you can download it here: ftp://ftp.winbolo.us/upload -- It's called Strategy Guide.doc

Aug 22, 2004 05:18

This shit has already been layed out in other stategy guides.

Aug 22, 2004 05:22

hardly, that's why i made this.

Aug 22, 2004 05:35 Revisions

Playing cocky causes you to play cocky with those really good players your idol skill over!

I find this to be very hypocritcal ren considering that you are one of the cockiest players that I know of to ever play bolo

Some suggestions on how you might be able to improve the guide. You act as though ppl are smart enough to know how to take pills, how to effictevly place pills and such. I myself have been playin Winbolo for about a year now give or take. I know the fundamentals and I'm smart enough to know what I'm doing but when I get into a game I get cought up in the moment and just stop thinking. In my oponion thinking before you play acting out as if you have a basic idea of what is going to happen is the hardest part about bolo. If you really want to make a guide that you would like to stand out better than Samhains guide which I still think is the best you might want to make major revisions to this guide. It seems very basic and as though you havent put much thought into revising it many times over. I'm just curious how much time did you put into this guide.
Anyways here are the things that I think you should revise about the guide.

First off explain things in much greater detail and dont forget to mention that no matter what practicing the things first-hand over and over and over again is the best way to learn

Another way for newb's or noob's to get better is to 1v1 many many ppl weather they be people better than them by a whole lot or ppl that are the same level as them. Either way it gives them a better concept of things to do from the more experienced players...and afterwards if they ask what they might have done wrong or some noticable mistakes, then they work on them it would help greatly.

You might want to post links referring to how to make pill takes from www.lgm.com/bolo That site still in my oponion has the best reference to everything about bolo/Winbolo

I think after many many revisions your guide could become good.

-Brando

Aug 22, 2004 06:22 Re: Revisions

Brando wrote:
Playing cocky causes you to play cocky with those really good players your idol skill over!

I find this to be very hypocritcal ren considering that you are one of the cockiest players that I know of to ever play bolo

Some suggestions on how you might be able to improve the guide. You act as though ppl are smart enough to know how to take pills, how to effictevly place pills and such. I myself have been playin Winbolo for about a year now give or take. I know the fundamentals and I'm smart enough to know what I'm doing but when I get into a game I get cought up in the moment and just stop thinking. In my oponion thinking before you play acting out as if you have a basic idea of what is going to happen is the hardest part about bolo. If you really want to make a guide that you would like to stand out better than Samhains guide which I still think is the best you might want to make major revisions to this guide. It seems very basic and as though you havent put much thought into revising it many times over. I'm just curious how much time did you put into this guide.
Anyways here are the things that I think you should revise about the guide.

First off explain things in much greater detail and dont forget to mention that no matter what practicing the things first-hand over and over and over again is the best way to learn

Another way for newb's or noob's to get better is to 1v1 many many ppl weather they be people better than them by a whole lot or ppl that are the same level as them. Either way it gives them a better concept of things to do from the more experienced players...and afterwards if they ask what they might have done wrong or some noticable mistakes, then they work on them it would help greatly.

You might want to post links referring to how to make pill takes from www.lgm.com/bolo That site still in my oponion has the best reference to everything about bolo/Winbolo

I think after many many revisions your guide could become good.

-Brando

Brando Brando Brando, This is a guide for amateurs, people that get pills, and don’t know where to plant them or what to do with them... Of course I could never make a guide as well as samhain, and show me where I stated that my guide is the best in the world, or that it's better than samhains? No where... So tossing insults saying it's not as good as this or that is just pointless, because frankly, hearing an opinion from you bringing into fact that you're only 13 years old and immature. So hearing these opinions that have no thought or research behind them makes no sense... anyway... what does me being cocky have to do with the quote? Yeah... i'm cocky... so what? Just because I write something doesn't mean that I follow it, does it? Nope, I think not, it's a STRATEGY GUIDE FOR OTHERS. And you don't base a strategy guide of yourself... i've known plenty of people that have made fantastic strategy guides with being some of the worst players in winbolo, but knowing from other people good strategy. Obviously, you wouldn't know that because you're just a big shot that thinks he knows everything.

You make no sense, you try to act all smart by having someone edit your grammar to look all smart and cool... i mean look at this...

rmBrody5: tranzamkid: I am an amateur and I've been one for a lot longer than you

Whoa! You've been an amateur longer than me! Lol... i don't think anyone would agree with that... go ask stimpy, ud, min, or anyone that's been here since .com was around. And according to some people like Min, I’m still an amateur... and when it comes to knowing what to do when, yes i'm an amateur... but if i'm an amateur still according to some... that makes your statement false...

tranzamkid: cocky meaning you act as though you’re all great when others think your not

Wow! This shows you're really smart, doesn't it!? First you said I’m not great, and now that I wasn't an amateur... wow... you really do know absolutely nothing... i thought that you were just jokingly acting retarded... guess not.

tranzamkid: just because you win
tranzamkid: doesnt mean your smarter
tranzamkid: or better
rmBrody5: 1x1 involves a lot of more strategy
rmBrody5: ask hard8 yourself
rmBrody5: look at his guide
rmBrody5: it says it self
rmBrody5: 1x1 is where STRATEGY really comes into play
rmBrody5: it says that specifically
rmBrody5: you know nothing... go read and THINK before you try to open your mouth

You tell me yourself you know more than me, yet you don't. Since you're probably going to argue, I think I might as well take the god damn quote out of samhains guide.

Oh look! Here we go!
"First things first, how can you tell that you're lacking in strategy? Well, I think it's safe to say that if you play a 2x2 better than a 1x1, that's a definite clue. In fact, the worst strategical players tend to hate 1x1's. 1x1's are where real strategy comes to play. A good 2x2 player isn't always a good 1x1 player, whereas a good 1x1 player is almost always a good 2x2 player. IMHO, that's where the saying, "I'm a team player, damnit", comes from. The more players in a game, the less strategy required"

Whoa ... again... Brando is wrong... I’ll let you just figure this one out on your god damn own since you think you're so "smart".

In conclusion, don't fucking try and start up shit with me and expect nothing, I realize you have your own opinions... but you need to learn your statements are equal to shit if they aren't true.
kthxstfudie.

tranzamkid: Do you enjoy making me look like a idiot?

... nah.. You do that plenty yourself ;) btw, it should be 'an idiot'. :)

Last edited: Aug 22, 2004 17:19 (edited 1 time)

Aug 22, 2004 13:20

'kthxstfudie'.........lol. Nice variation. Although, I still like this one better: 'StfuandDiepainfullykthnxbye'.

Always use this emoticon:

:arrow: :D

Aug 22, 2004 19:28

whoa, brando is sooooooooo right. You are one of the cockiest little fuckers that exist, ren.

Aug 22, 2004 19:40

oh boy oh boy ... we might get a real discussion on strategy going on in here .... I'll response to this when I get home ..... but be prepared for a long one ;)

Min

Aug 22, 2004 22:18

hah Amateurs, do there are professional players now? why can't you people just call them noobs so nobody mistakes winbolo.net for some weird pr0n site.

Aug 23, 2004 00:41 Re: Ren's Strategy Guide

First thing I'd like to state, is this what I'm going to say is not intended as flamebait, I don't intend to personally attack you Ren, I just want to voice my opinion on the points you've posted.

In starting I would like to state that in my opinion, your guide should not be labeled "strategy" it should be a labeled a pillwar tactical guide.

Ren wrote:

So we begin…

• Don't send lgm (builder) if you know it will die / get killed / walled.

I start off with the biggest problem for most players. Losing your builder when you’re in the heat of a huge pill battle can cost you all those pills, and possibly bases. It’s best to make a short send to fake a repair, or if you don’t have a pill on your hands, pick up the pill and build it somewhere else. If you’re carrying an extra pill flanking is a great strategic move, because it covers more ground, saves a pill loss, and a builder loss.

this is the biggest problem? .... well first things first, I don't agree with much of this paragraph. Your right, losing your lgm in the heat of a huge pill battle can cost you pills, etc ... but thats not really a strategical thing, if you wanted to talk strategy, why not mention the other end of the spectrum, such as why you SHOULD lose your builder ... I can think of many reasons why losing your builder is a better idea than keeping him.

• Don't play offensively if you less pills than your opponent.
When you’re down in pills, play defense. Set up a defensive pill line and earn some pills you may have lost earlier in the game, than resume playing offense. If you don’t play defense when you have a less amount of pills than your opponent you’re increasing the percentage of losing your own pills.

I truly hope you don't seriously believe this paragraph ren, Don't play offensively? .... if you don't play offensively you lose your initiative, if you don't know what initative is, time to go read samhains strategy guide again. Alot of times, when your down on pills, playing offensive is EXACTLY what you should be doing. Playing defensively is the typical winbolo style used these days, but it doesn't have to be that way. Again, not quite strategy, more pillwarring advice.

• Don't plant pills too far up if you know they will get shot.
When playing always make short sends with your builder. If you make a
long send, or foolish send, you’re probably going to get your builder shot. Making a long send and losing your builder can cause you to lose a pill or many pills. So to stop your builder from getting shot, make a short send.

A long send is only foolish if the person your playing has the ability to shoot lgms sometimes, sending long can be utter genius, and as previously mentioned, sometimes you want to get your builder shot ... and .. losing a pill or many pills? ... so? ...

• Don't plant pills you can’t defend.
Some players end up planting pills all the way across the map, where they know they can’t defend it. This is mainly bad because if you try to support the spike, you’re out of reach of your bases for ammo and shield. It’s best to plant pills where you have highly fueled bases so you can access them easier without losing pills while you’re refueling. Another thing, don’t plant your pills behind enemy bases if you don’t plan on raping! This can be an easy take for some players because they can use their base as a shield from letting you shoot their builder.

again, I can think of many reasons to plant a pill you can't defend .... and sometimes you plant pills besides bases and don't rape for other reasons, think outside the box ren. What if I do that, but I'm not trying to shoot your builder? .... but you think its a easy take becuase its beside a base. So you go for it. Hrm ..... I can think of many good uses for that sort of information.

A good defensive pill line setup:
• Support your pilltakes.
When attempting to do a pilltake, always have pills next to your pilltake so you can heat the other pills to prevent your opponent from sweeping to pick up their pill, and maybe yours! While you have extra pills to stop sweeps, you can get good aims on builders too, while attempting a pilltake!

umm, support your pilltakes? .. what if you only have one pill? what if you don't want that extra pill on the ground? what if you intend to move forward and having the extra on the ground will just get in the way or cause a pillwar? ... what if not planting that extra support pill will allow you to get a builder kill against your enemy? Ponder the possiblities, I rarely plant supporting pills as you just suggested.

• USE PILLVIEW!
Always use pill view. You can use this to see what’s going on with your pill line while you’re refueling or raping bases, or whatever you might be doing at the time. Some players prefer to listen for noise then go to where they here the sound, this is not good because you cannot see where they’re shooting, or how much damage they’ve done to your pills. Check what you currently have set your pill view key by holding down Control and K in your WinBolo game window.
Some cool pilltakes you can learn.

umm, ok ... but how is this strategy? ....

• Always play your best.
When playing a newbie, someone not as good as you, or anyone, always players your best. Playing cocky causes you to play cocky with those really good players your idol skill over!

well, this is almost always impossible, the only way to always play your best, is to always play people who are better than you, but in alot of cases, better players are not always availible.

I've been purposefully vague on alot of the things I've responded with in the hopes that perhaps this will evolve into a meaningful discussion.

Min

Aug 23, 2004 01:17

I've been purposefully vague on alot of the things I've responded with in the hopes that perhaps this will evolve into a meaningful discussion.

you've come to the wrong place for that one. Although I have to agree with you this seems like a guide to pillwarring more or less, not even a good one at that. Sure these things can work once in awhile in certain situations. But really you need the skills to be able to read what is happening with the pillwar and work around it. Things like long plants, foolish spikes may seem dumb, but when done right they can save your ass in many situations. I guess as basic guidelines these things somewhat work. Definately not a guide to memorize and live by, unless you want to play exactly like Ren.

Aug 23, 2004 01:52

Believe it or not, moved back into WinBolo -> General out of General Chat.

Aug 23, 2004 02:15 Re: Ren's Strategy Guide

Min wrote:
I've been purposefully vague on alot of things

Do you work for the U.S. government?

Aug 23, 2004 05:56

Beautiful post, min.

Aug 23, 2004 08:44

I think it's a good thing that Ren decided to put his thoughts down in a post. Writing a guide on that level of Bolo thinking is not an easy task. I feel that my own guide is more on a global level, whereas Ren's floats between a local city and a state map. Mine was easier to write, because I could stick to larger generalizations, as well as avoid the minute details. Neither is necessarily more important than the other, though.

I had once thought about writing something similar, but I felt it was too lofty of a task. There are too many variations and styles to compile them into a single guide. Bolo’s depth of strategy makes it similar to chess, where there are literally thousands of books written about it (in addition to periodicals, message boards, and websites).

There are a number of ways we could go about creating strategic and tactical learning tools, while following the chess model.

One idea I have is to compile some old r.g.b. posts, and some of the old aero strategy discussion lists (if anyone still has any copies of it available) and add some commentary and pictures to illustrate certain classes of situations (like how a chess book reviews a given opening or sequence of moves).

Another is to try working with the Mac BoloViewer and create game situations where players would see a series of moves take place and have to find the best solution (with commentary and illustrations of the better and worse moves). Along the same lines is to create a series of practice maps with pre-selected ownership. You could have maps where the player has to determine the final spike, realize which critical base needs to be stolen, or even set up handicap matches of 15-1 bases that scale up to even).

One of my favorite chess books was by Fred Reinfeld, where he illustrated the top 10 worst moves of intermediate players. It was a unique approach in that it sought to help remove the bad habits in order to allow the player to progress (using the analogy of how to chisel an elephant sculpture). Ren’s approach seems similar, but it lacks a little bit of structure. Instead of trying to cover all of the bases in one post, a more comprehensive approach to a more distinct portion of your game would be a much better read.

I feel that Ren’s guide was written more along the lines of “How to ally with Ren”, which is totally fine (I wrote a similar post on 12/95 (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=masushige-2112951106510001%40samhain.aero.org&rnum=5). But, I’d much rather see a strategy/tactics guide that relates to how Ren plays. I wrote my guide to explain how I felt I was able to defeat tactical players. People often complain that Ren doesn’t play strategically, yet he still comes away with more than his share of wins. That’s what I’d like to read and discuss. You’re capable of more, Ren, let's see it.

Aug 23, 2004 13:26 Re: Ren's Strategy Guide

Ren wrote:
Ren's Strategy Guide For Amateurs

Note the above title. Think about that before you think his guide is junk.

Regardless of the fact that we're all amateurs at winbolo 'cause there are no professionals (I don't remember any tournaments or the IBL having a purse), I am assuming that "amateurs" means novice players. Most of the people being critical of ren's guide are not novice players, so the guide is way below them, and they can't really use it. But some newer players would benefit from reading it, I think.

For instance, it mentions that you should not make long distance lgm sends. Min argued that sometimes it's good to do it. Well for a lower tiered, novice player, it's NEVER good!! They don't know what the hell they're doing! And I don't think their intent is to get their lgm killed.

Also, the guide says to play defensively when you're down on pills. Min says you should go on the offensive, not to lay back. Now come on, what do you think would happen if a novice player stuck his neck out with only a few pills? He'd lose them all in 10 seconds!!!! The novice player is not advanced enough to do something as crafty as go on offense with only a few pills.

I think ren's guide may need a little tweaking, but I see the intent and it's a good intent. Maybe if newbies take time to read it and use its ideas they'll get better and become ready for a more advanced guide in strategy and tactics.

Aug 23, 2004 18:06

These guides from the Official Bolo Home Page cover a lot of the ground that Ren's guide goes over.

http://www.lgm.com/bolo/guides/puppylove.html
http://www.lgm.com/bolo/guides/bl-guide.html

Don't get me wrong, though, I appreciate that Ren made an effort to help others. The shorter article style of guide is probably a lot more palatable to the new player than PL's guide. Keeping the focus of the article a little tighter like BL's posts would be more informative and conducive to further discussion and debate. And that’s the real fun of posting to a message board.

Aug 23, 2004 19:04 Re: Ren's Strategy Guide

Mad Scout wrote:

For instance, it mentions that you should not make long distance lgm sends. Min argued that sometimes it's good to do it. Well for a lower tiered, novice player, it's NEVER good!! They don't know what the hell they're doing! And I don't think their intent is to get their lgm killed.

well mad scout, if we all just sit back and go "ya, ren's 'strategy' guide rocks" then all the 'amatuers' will think that they should use it, so they will never develop any strategical thinking in regards to something like long bomb spiking, or going offensive with a smaller number of pills (ever hear that the best defense is a good offensive?) If we all chant that these things are bad, they won't consider the uses they have in certain situations, sure a newer player should perhaps try to reduce this sort of thing, but if they do that ..... how will they learn? ..... maybe the way you guys currently do things is ineffective? ... and some newbie will come up with a way to kick the crap out of you all using a new style of play?

Mad Scout wrote:

I think ren's guide may need a little tweaking, but I see the intent and it's a good intent. Maybe if newbies take time to read it and use its ideas they'll get better and become ready for a more advanced guide in strategy and tactics.

If you immerse a player in tactics before you show them the finer points of the game, they will never be willing to break away from the tactical thinking. For example, Ren. I will just love it when the game play changes again, and you guys realize what the game is all about.

Min

Aug 23, 2004 23:39 Re: Ren's Strategy Guide

Min wrote:

well mad scout, if we all just sit back and go "ya, ren's 'strategy' guide rocks" then all the 'amatuers' will think that they should use it, so they will never develop any strategical thinking in regards to something like long bomb spiking, or going offensive with a smaller number of pills (ever hear that the best defense is a good offensive?) If we all chant that these things are bad, they won't consider the uses they have in certain situations, sure a newer player should perhaps try to reduce this sort of thing, but if they do that ..... how will they learn? .....
Min

They WILL develop strategical thinking, they WILL learn new ideas. They'll learn them by getting beaten by someone using these ideas. Oh, and they'll learn by reading BL's guide, because by then hopefully they'll be ready for it. You're not ready for his guide if you don't know basic stuff, like how to take pills at many different angles, how to use your lgm safely, pillwarring and many other things.

Having a newbie read his guide is like having a bunch of 7 year old kids play baseball on a major league sized diamond, with MLB rules. They're simply not ready, not even close. For 7 year old kids to be able to play baseball they need to be on a little-league sized diamond (60 ft. instead of 90 ft. between bases, I think), and the ball needs to be on a tee or have the dads pitch, and 6 kids in the outfield, and no stealing bases. As they get older, they're ready for more elements to be added to their game, and by the time they're teenagers, they can play on the big diamond with the more advanced rules. Same thing goes for novice winbolo players.

But if you don't teach base stealing right away to little kids playing baseball, how will they ever learn it??? How will the catcher learn how to throw down to 2nd??? How will the pitcher learn to keep an eye on the runner while concentrating on the hitter???

They'll figure it out when they're good and ready.

I think ren's guide might be a way to help novice players get from point A to point B. Let's not rush them off to point Z, you might frustrate them.

Aug 23, 2004 23:58

I've never said my guide is "the shit" or "the best" in any form, shape, or size. Everyone knows it isn't as good as samhains and i sure as hell no it too. But for some of you to be soo judging and complete assholes to such is just cruel and rude. I may not succeed in what i try in but i have the courage to go for something i feel like doing. Yeah, sure maybe it's worthless to some, but think again.. Why would i put it up if i knew you guys were just going to insult insult and insult. I'm glad to see how some commented, and said i can do better, and yeah, i probably could do better, but for some of you to just make a horrific and cruel, and RUDE statement saying this blows because, quoting things from the guide and saying why it blows. There's some of you out there have done absolutely NOTHING for the community. Yes, i said nothing. you decide to just BITCH about other people's hard work and stuff. Maybe you should try making a strategy guide like mine, or longer. See how long it takes you. I can easily say mine took atleast 3 hours to make, with everything i did. All i can say is maybe you guys should try to think of what it would be like to be in my shoes right now.

Aug 24, 2004 01:20

Last edited: Dec 24, 2011 04:46 (edited 1 time)

Aug 24, 2004 01:47

Ren:

I don’t think people are attacking the principle of what you did, they most certainly are not after offending you neither. They are pointing out to that the "title" of your guide should probably be rectified to a title that suits the objectives you covered. I would agree your guide was more about pill-handling and pill-warring. This has been stated and pointed out to you clearly a couple times. The time you spent and the knowledge you typed up isn’t a real "beef", nor has a bunch of people attacked you for your efforts. Instead they are trying to broaden your work, if you truly were intending to make a "strategy guide" you will have to endeavor the entire realm of bolo strategy, rather then just one element of the game. One component u haven’t really covered (as an example) would be “bases.” Perhaps more detail on when is an appropriate time to rape, and when not to. Another aspect might be planted prestigiously to allow pill-view to occur and be established with in a certain portion of the map, or your quad. Pills aren’t always placed just for battle and for warring, they are a sufficient way of being aware of your surroundings if planted strategically. These are just a few of the vast amounts of points tips and strategies available.

Consider Mins comments as more constructive criticism and appointed logic that you may have overlooked. Samhain actually commmended you for your work. He also applied some intuitive remarks that might assist and direct your work as well. Consider it also in these terms: you have tendencies in games to tell others where to go and what to do, that is possibly where some aggression towards “you being arrogant” remarks has seized into this forum. It’s rather challenging to me to see someone, who yes may rank well in the bolo stats, and may have good skills in the game; make a guide when there are so many vast things that even “You”, a high ranked bolo player, are missing and tend to not apply to your game on the battlefield. I for one don’t always like being your ally due to your arrogance and over demanding maneuvers and suggestions during the heat of the moment.

I am proud of you for taking initiative to post some assisting thoughts for “newbies,” or newly found players. Keep an open mind to what the purpose of the forum is truly about, other people might have branching points to add that these “newbies” can also take in consideration along with some of the basic tips and points to pill-handling.

Add-boy

Aug 24, 2004 22:08

nice posts, *bump*

Aug 24, 2004 22:15

Why does it need to be bumped? Its still on the front page, its also still the first post in the general forum. It hasn't disappeared behind a lot of other topics.

Aug 24, 2004 23:19

hahaha Elvis is funny