Is deforesting cheating?

well, whattayall think

do you meen like shooting trees?

I cannot vote because there is no option for "other"

It's not "cheating," per se, because there's no set standard of rules in the game itself, to where it is physically impossible to destroy X amount of trees in X amount of time.

That being said, I don't think that a game that involves such tactics as vulturing, deforesting, pre-farming, or carpet mining is a real test of each person's strategical knowledge. If you're in the game just to win, no matter the cost, then de-foresting is the way to go. If you're here to learn something, or have a good time with a couple online friends, then don't do it. Something as trivial as an online 2D game shouldn't be won at all costs.

you need an opton c: not cheating but bad etiquitte :)


what nova said is pretty much dead on...it's not cheating, but there are better ways to spend your time playing the game...deforesting and carpet mining is not a test of what you know and for some including myself, it's just plain not fun to deal with...

on the other hand...I've noticed something with mining...and I would like to know where the line is drawn or if it should be or just bag it and do what you want since you are not going to please the masses...case in point:

I come to your corner to harrass you...you take the bait and start chasing/ shooting me... I lay some mines down for cover to get back to my side and aviod dying or lay mine to take you down with me if I sense we are we both can bite the bullet that way, and leave it up the poor respawn protocol to see who gets the upper hand So the question is: did I carpet mine your side or didn't I? If it were neutral territory, I merely protected myself from being killed so it was carpet mining, but I've heard people complain that I mined their side by laying those mines. I guess another question that could be raised is did I come to your side knowing you would give chase so that I could mine and have an excuse? I guess I view it as well you chased me and once the chase is on, I can defend myself. If you didn't give chase, I wouldn't have mined...thoughts???

I just want to know how people view this scenerio from the etiquitte standpoint...thanks...

I hate mines and I especially hate the way mines work in winbolo. They are just too powerful compared to mines in bolo(if you played bolo, you would understand what I mean). On the other hand, sometimes they are just needed cause they save the day....

It's all about intent.

Nova wrote:

It's not "cheating," per se, because there's no set standard of rules in the game itself, to where it is physically impossible to destroy X amount of trees in X amount of time.

Cheating is doing things that are against the rules, such as jumping go, farming before start, or just outright hacking.

Nova wrote:

That being said, I don't think that a game that involves such tactics as vulturing, deforesting, pre-farming, or carpet mining is a real test of each person's strategical knowledge. If you're in the game just to win, no matter the cost, then de-foresting is the way to go. If you're here to learn something, or have a good time with a couple online friends, then don't do it. Something as trivial as an online 2D game shouldn't be won at all costs.

Sorry, but I disagree. Vulturing, deforesting, etc are all strategy based. You use your strategical knowledge to determine if doing those things will give you the upper hand. Vulturing is only not used more because winbolo pills are too strong. Deforesting is a valid strategy. If you've got a superior skilled enemy backed into a corner, you can't take any territory, and neither can they. If you destroy their forest, they have to start traveling further for trees. This allows you to have a few extra precious seconds to take their pills, or bases, or spike or whatever. If you can honestly tell me that is not strategically, then I don't know what to say. Well I do know what to say but it would involve questioning your intelligence. Deforesting and mining are valid tactics, and can be used strategically in any given situation. It’s all about risk management. Is running over to their side, and killing some trees worth the risk of leaving your pills/bases undefended? ... It’s the same question you have to ask yourself when you do a spike. Some people don't enjoy pillwar, I don't. Using other strategies is what makes the game fun for me. Pillwar being so strong is one of the many reasons I currently don't play strict games. If you don't find killing tree's or mining fun. Don't let it come to that.

Min

†DS† wrote:

deforesting and carpet mining is not a test of what you know and for some including myself, it's just plain not fun to deal with...

Again, I disagree. How you deforest and how you carpet mine -is- a test of what you know. Can you honestly say that if someone comes over to your side. Seems to randomly mine you (carpet mining) that it doesn't piss you off? .... if you get mad at this seemingly random act. Do you continue to play bolo at the same skill level as you do when your calm? .... Bolo is about who makes the most mistakes.

†DS† wrote:

on the other hand...I've noticed something with mining...and I would like to know where the line is drawn or if it should be or just bag it and do what you want since you are not going to please the masses...case in point:

bag it and do what you want. Some people feel mining or deforesting in a uneven game (2x3 or similiar) is 'unfair' but if its not previously (before that game) stated that these things are not allowed. I will still do them.

†DS† wrote:

I hate mines and I especially hate the way mines work in winbolo. They are just too powerful compared to mines in bolo(if you played bolo, you would understand what I mean). On the other hand, sometimes they are just needed cause they save the day....

I hate mines becuase they have a tendency to kill your tank more frequently than anything else becuase they go off randomly. They have their uses. Such as forcing the action away from your undefended flanks. I quite frequently use mines to deter movement in area's that I don't want my enemy moving easily in. Forcing the action to were I can defend/attack the most easily. I find only people who don't understand mines hate them. Just like people who can't deal with strategy worth a crap hate 1x1's.

Min

I'll go ahead and concede on the strategy bit. If I were generous I'd say I had 1% of your experience. Not only that, I'm not really so sure I was convinced of what I wrote in the first place, as far as strategy goes.

I still don't think that those kinds of tactics really add to the game experience. As far as having a fun game, I don't want to be cleaning up messes and dealing with insufficient resources in my down time. It's too much like real life.

'Course, I haven't played the game in years, but how else am I going to get an excercise in futility? :-)

---Nova

Wow,

Seems this topic is a reoccurring squabble. Unfortunately, it usually halts with an identical closing stage. Each individual elucidates his/her opinions and stance concerning the subject matter. Specified comments agree to one position, opposed to supplementary arguments that hold stance to the conflicting congregation of feelings. The reality pertaining to this topic is no one entity should feel he/she is wrong for believing in what they feel is right/wrong. That is why specific points are called: "Ethics" or "Principles". Neither yours nor another's opinion should ever be resolved as false or erroneous in value.

On a "Technical" viewpoint towards the topic, there are certain facts to determine. This significant approach is very similar to that of a court room, whereas everyone has their own opinion, or maybe even bias, to the indictments and accusations. But facts are facts, which help categorize opinions versus fact.

Technically (Facts are):

1.) Mines were designed as a feature to the bolo sport, and therefore isn't something that turns off or on. (With exception to hidden mines)

2.) Mines cause craters or difficult terrain if you will, which makes tanks and lgm's work extra hard to pass over and navigate through.

3.) Tree's and the ability to farm and build with them are given features as well.

4.) Ammo destroying trees was an option designed by the maker as well.

5.) Blocks or walls can encase tanks, lgm's, bases and much more.

6.) Bolo in of its own nature, still exhibits certain relentless bugs, lag, and other disruptions.

7.) Not all players will follow the rules all the time.

Obviously, there are several other facts and fundamentals to bolo that I have not detailed and listed in this post. For relevancy, I plotted the ones present; that I felt influenced this topic and its many positions.

In Conclusion, having your opinion is a fair and justified entity. Just remember to incorporate the facts, and determine that others may not share your opinion or view points towards certain facts of the game. Therefore to convict them of wrong doings is often invalid based off what influences your accusations. I will not argue that in some cases, these facts voluntarily get "abused" and violated. That is where certain rules of etiquette can be drawn to sidestep argument. (Example: farming before go, blocking in tanks before go, etc.) So rather then argue over whether mines are fair, or deforesting is just, even if blocking in someone’s lgm is reasonable, perhaps it's time to develop a community "etiquette rules" and allow people to ballot what side they tend to abide with. From there listing on one or opposing sides to each point will greatly help determine whether they are someone you want to play with or not.

Good luck with all of your endeavors; I wish you all the best in future events.

addbot wrote:

.... So rather then argue over whether mines are fair, or deforesting is just, even if blocking in someone’s lgm is reasonable, perhaps it's time to develop a community "etiquette rules" and allow people to ballot what side they tend to abide with. From there listing on one or opposing sides to each point will greatly help determine whether they are someone you want to play with or not...

and that's just it. Etiquitte is defined as what the other people that you are playing with have decided upon. Coming from bolo this was a much easier thing to decide upon as we knew everyone that played and over time grew a sense of respect of what we would and would not tolerate kinda like how everyone just doesn't tolerate hackers, we grew to not tolerate certain aspects of the game that we deemed unnessary even though they were part of the game...

I don't know who said it, but here's a little insight into bolo or winbolo for that matter that some may not know and it may provide insight on to why we have differents views on how the game should be played.

When Stuart created bolo he didn't envision pill takes(using blocks, other pills, your allies, etc). This is of course because pills aim for the center of your tank, but you are allowed to hit any part of a pill to damage it so blocks and pills can be used so that you can still hit it but it can't hit you. I'm sure most of you knew that. he created a simple game to explain/show his ring protocol idea, and that's about it. He never knew rubbing a pill in bolo would prove to be so valuable as if you got close enough to a pill it couldn't shoot you or in that sense if two tanks were the same distance from the pill it would shoot neither of you. Stuart meant for everyone to hardline pills all the time and made it so you had to come back and forth a couple times by making the pills stronger than you were. Well in this respect he lacked some vision that all of us now take for granted(the simple pilltake) and over time we now take for granted vision that other people soon came to realize too. These things include deforesting/carpet mining/walling in tanks and lgms, etc. These are all valid tactics in bolo just like all the pill takes that were discovered because well bolo allows them to happen per se. It just took someone to vision that you could win a game without taking a pill, and just by making sure your enemy couldn't either by taking out his trees or making so he can't move around. I've won many a games by not taking one pill on my own and still acquiring pills by either vulturing all of my oponents, or just by making a great base run and raping him out before he knew what happened. Are these valid wins, yes...are they fun wins...sometimes, do they piss your opponent off to no end...sure, but it's part of the game...it happens. Do we want to play every game like that...god no. Well, that's just it...in the end the vets of bolo and now some in winbolo decided on certain etquitte/respect aspects of the game that we would not want to deal with and deforesting and carpet mining became the most important. The line can truely only be drawn as Min and I discussed briefly yesterday on who you are actually playing with at that time, and how they want to play the game. In a 1x1 it's easy to decided upon what you want and want not to do , while in a 2x2 it's more difficult, and after that it's down right impossible. I've played with people who don't shoot lgms on the return, who don't spike starts, who don't spike at all, who don't use mines at all, as well as played games where there's no rubbing of pills(mac bolo)...you get the idea...it's a matter of respect than etiquitte sometimes. and I say that because is it a matter of respect that if you join a game and are asked to leave that you leave or not? Is it a matter of respect that you not join a game already in progress and just start messing with stuff? These things became second nature in bolo for awhile well because there were only 10-15 of us playing so we all knew. so the question may lie as do you respect me enough to leave and let me play my game and do I respect you enough to play yours, and can we decide to play together and come to an undestanding on how we want to play. Is it etiquitte really, not really because it's an internet game and anyone can play whenever they want and however they want, but respect the individuals that are playing and let them play their way, and find other individuals who want to play your way...

devilspawn(hater of deforesting and carpet mining, but I've done it before and would do it again, if I know that's who I'm playing with and that's how they play (2x2 or more of course). In a 1x1, we can decide what's right or wrong before we begin...)

my 4 cents I guess since I gave my 2 earlier....cya on the bolo battle field! happy boloing...

I think that if all these things are allowed by the code, we can use them as strategy... It's a part of the game.

ok, i'll finally add something to this discussion:

DS: i agree - etiquette is what the people who are playing agree upon, which is why i made both this and the next poll: to find out what people generally think about using these methods in a game. my hope is that, with some consensus formed (either way) we can all have safe default assumptions in any given game (e.g. deforesting is or is not allowed) UNLESS someone specifically brings it up ahead of time and the other players agree on an alternate view in that particular game (e.g. deforesting is not or is allowed for that particular game).

Alain: the 'code' also allows you to start before go is called (or to just start whenever you want, teams or not), and to not hold during a hold call, so i don't find that to be a valid argument. by extending your argument i could claim not holding and starting whenever were valid. However, as stated above, I think it's just about what we agree is cheating or bad etiquette, then how we modify those basic, assumed principles of the game in specific cases if need be.

-= Der

derami wrote:

...
Alain: the 'code' also allows you to start before go is called (or to just start whenever you want, teams or not), and to not hold during a hold call, so i don't find that to be a valid argument. by extending your argument i could claim not holding and starting whenever were valid. However, as stated above, I think it's just about what we agree is cheating or bad etiquette, then how we modify those basic, assumed principles of the game in specific cases if need be.

I said that only about the subject of this thread : deforesting, and about mining too. (I agree with you about starts and hold...)

Min wrote:

Cheating is doing things that are against the rules, such as jumping go, farming before start, or just outright hacking

Jumping go can give a player a big strategic edge. Much like with carpet mining and deforesting, there are some whiny players who disapprove of go-jumping, but I've found it to be a succesful and therefore legitimate tactic.

I believe that jumping go should be considered just as acceptable as carpet mining and deforesting. It's all part of the game, right?

CF

Keyan_Farlander wrote:

Can someone explain the reasoning behind why killing all the trees is bad etiquette? Because it makes it impossible to build? Isnt that like saying killing all the bases is bad etiquette because it makes it impossible to refuel? :?:

becuase many people feel that this requires no skill, and therefore shouldn't be used (note, they find it annoying).... so ya, same as saying killing all the bases is bad etiquette.

Min

Min wrote:

(note, they find it annoying)....
Min

I think more people find you annoying, so please stop locking threads you didn't start.

min annoying? i seem to recall you not coming out so well in a poll asking how annoying YOU were zzz so i wouldn't really talk ;) for reference see: 'hrm'

(-_-)zzz wrote:

I think more people find you annoying, so please stop locking threads you didn't start.

Weither people find me annoying or not is irrelevant in relation to weither I lock threads or not. Your statement is retarded. Its like saying "Some chocolate bars are brown, so .... I like cheese!" ..... Next time try coming up with a better arguement.

Min

All you need to know to guide you in regards to wars of attrition in any form, in any realm, is the following:

No it's not cheating.

..and..

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

You can now all go back to being pedantic morons about a silly video game.

STYX RULZ!

you can deforest all you want, but then when you need some trees and theyre all cleancut, you'll regret

Min wrote:

Weither people find me annoying or not is irrelevant in relation to weither I lock threads or not. Your statement is retarded. Its like saying "Some chocolate bars are brown, so .... I like cheese!" ..... Next time try coming up with a better arguement.

There is no question, people do find you annoying. Locking threads is just one more way you annoy people. Thanks for your ingenious analysis of my previous statement; you are clearly a master of the English language.

(-_-)zzz wrote:

There is no question, people do find you annoying. Locking threads is just one more way you annoy people. Thanks for your ingenious analysis of my previous statement; you are clearly a master of the English language.

Ah yes, attacks on spelling. Those typically happen after you have nothing further intelligent to say. Good work. I must say, making sure my grammar and spelling are perfect in a internet arguement is really important. Way to go man.

Min

heh, lock this one too. u should lock every forum thread that gets off topic, and fights. lock em all.