The Mining Problem

Min,

I just wanted to thank you publicly for being the only pro-mine person who cares enough to write thoughtfully in favor of them -- I know from speaking to several others that they agree with your position, but it's too bad that their support on winbolo.net is largely limited to "Yeah, 4 Real!" It would be nice to have others' views, although perhaps to your credit you're saying what's on everyone's mind.

I think I've about said everything I have to say on this, so this will be my last post -- Elvis, I hope the discussion's been thought-provoking if nothing else. I'd also like to thank Fi, UD, and Sticks for taking the time to weigh in meaningfully.

Min, your argument seems to be that this modification is a waste of time, and that it would drive you from bolo. I'd just like to point out why I think that these notions are somewhat inconsistent, and suggest that neither must be true.

First, the inconsistency: if it's a waste Elvis's effort, I think that's only true if it's a change that isn't popular and that people don't use. But if it's not popular, it won't drive you from bolo. If on the other hand you *are* driven from bolo, it'll only be because the change is so wildly popular that everyone uses it -- in that case, of course, I don't think it would be a waste of time at all. I think this theory holds unless you suggest that it's a waste of Elvis's time even if it would be a very popular reform, a notion that seems a bit strange. To be sure, there are other things he could do in addition to/instead of -maxmines, but the existence of those other things doesn't directly affect the merit of -maxmines itself.

As I alluded to earlier, however, I don't think that it's actually an either/or proposition -- I don't think that it's a waste of time, nor do I think that it'll be the only game in town. I, along with Sticks, Underdog, and Fi at least (and probably others), would make frequent though not uniform use of it. Others, such as yourself, Stimpy, addbot, maddmaxx, and no doubt others, probably would not. It therefore seems likely that both kinds of games will exist -- not a waste of time, and you'd still get your games. In fact, I'm pretty sure that -maximines is only a preference for most of those who have spoken in support of it, and they would play games either way; that must be the case, because they play games right now when the option doesn't exist. Since it's only a preference, if you want a 40-mine game, I'd be profoundly surprised if anyone who's spoken in favor of -maxmines would decline the pleasure of your company. I certainly wouldn't turn down the chance to learn from someone of your ability.

Over and out on this one, and thanks everyone.

-Kax

Kax wrote:

Min,

I just wanted to thank you publicly for being the only pro-mine person who cares enough to write thoughtfully in favor of them -- I know from speaking to several others that they agree with your position, but it's too bad that their support on winbolo.net is largely limited to "Yeah, 4 Real!" It would be nice to have others' views, although perhaps to your credit you're saying what's on everyone's mind.

thanks ... its nice to get a discussion that doesn't involve lots of swearing .. and people being banned ...

I will always consider this sort of "improvement" to be in the same realm as changing how the peices move on a chess board .... if you change chess .. its no longer chess .. as I've stated, I would much prefer that elvis work on some other, far more (in my opinion) interesting improvements, such as the ability to watch games at a later time via a logviewer of some sort.

on another note I just finished playing a 78 minute long 1x1 with neo. (quite a good game I might add) without 40 mines allowable ... this would not have been possible .... (note, do not read this as us carpet mining the crap out of each other .. it didn't happen)

Thoughtfully, Min

Well now that we have individual posts that rival the Unabomber's Manifesto in length and cogency of content, I'll add my $0.02...

Who the fuck cares? There is no mining problem. World hunger, toe cheese, what to buy for Father's Day, there's a few actual problems.

Anway, I'd say to JM, as if he should give a rat's turd what I think, modify winbolo beyond the mac standard once it has achieved the mac standard, if you must. For instance, there is still no map overview, and that's a major component of the original game that isn't even there. Howzabout we leave him to get the game to where the mac version was in 1997 or whenever before it gets changed completely, hmm?

As has been said above, anyone who carpet-mines usually is a dumbass anyway, but there are occasions where it can be an effective and legitimate tactic. How folks can demand an integral part of the game be modified or removed because it gets their panties in a bunch is beyond me.

Hahahaha, i cant believe i'm responding to this thread...

Ok so its a somewhat dated thread but I just ran into it personally, and wanted to express my opinion :P

Arguments by anti-miners:

#1 mining is annoying
its also annoying when your teammate shoots you or your LGM, should that be taken out too? most people probably would say no, but i guess if you wanted to completely rid the game of any possible "annoyance factor" you could petition for a -nofriendlyfire option :P

#2 massive mining slows down the game
thats right, and so does a good, well fought, drawn out pill war. should the potential for pillwars be destroyed just to speed up the game? again, most people would probably say no. but if the only reason you play bolo is because some games are fast, maybe theres an anti-pillwar option you could petition for.

having pills available by itself doesn't mean there will be a pillwar, or that the pillwar will definately slow down the game. it just means that depending on who you play, the potential is there. the same goes for mines. having the mines available doesn't slow down the game, its the tactics some players use with those mines that slows it down.

there may very well be other tactics and strategies that can slow down the game, or make it annoying for some people. that doesn't mean the ability to use those tactics or strategies should be impaired or destroyed.

having said that... i don't mind either way if the option is created. if the only servers available are running -maxmines 5 i may get stuck with playing a few games with that option. but similar to what min said earlier... its just good reason for me to avoid playing on servers with that option. IF the option is created, i'd highly recommend the DEFAULT stay at 40.

-Moe

moeser wrote:

having said that... i don't mind either way if the option is created. if the only servers available are running -maxmines 5 i may get stuck with playing a few games with that option
-Moe

Yep, we recognized that some of us don't mind mine caperting and don't find it as boring, annoying, frustrating as some of others of us do, which is why we aren't talkinga about removing mines, just letting people choose the option as they start games. Those who love mines, and those who hate mines can all have the option of playing as they choose :).