bolo rules?

It's recently come to my attention that some people believe that bolo has rules other than starting where previously discussed and not starting until the game is called. There has been a situation involving me and another fellow winboloer that has created a umm.....heated argument about what is fair and what is not. We no longer speak because of our differences of opinion on this subject. It is not my intention to continue the argument here but to gain clarification on how the rest of the winbolo community feels. My personal opinion is that after the game is called anything goes. I feel that if the game allows you to perform certain actions those actions are not unfair. I also think that if you want to play a game that involves people holding hands you should not be playing a game that involves a tank that shoots bullets and the object of the the game involves dominating your opponent. I understand that some things make people upset. For example: excessive mining and blocking other people in. I can honestly understand how upsetting this can be in a game. It's happened to me as well as everyone else. It sucks to be mined or blocked in but, THIS IS A WAR GAME!!!!! When someone uses these tactics to win a game it is upsetting, I agree. Even though I am mad at someone who has done this to me in a game I also respect that this is a WAR GAME and they did what they did to win. If we are not playing bolo to win what are we playing for? I think that playing dirty should be respected! I recently played a strict game that ended up in a loss because someone mined the fuck out of our quads. If this person had not done this we would have one. I personally think that we were a much stronger team. We didn't win though. Why you ask? Its because one player realized that we were stronger and did what he had to do to win the game. Anyone one of us on our team could have done the same thing to there quads and didn't. He used a very effective TACTIC to win the game. Congratulations you pissed me off but also gained my respect for you as an awesome bolo player!!!!! Go --------!!!
Good game!!! I played a game recently that I was the one who got a little dirty (Its not my style to mine the fuck out of people, but I may adopt it). I was getting back harassed by someone and I managed to block them in. I honestly felt pretty pleased about this because this particular player has caused me more deaths and lgm losses because of his back harassing TACTIC than, honestly, anyone I can remember. Yeah it makes me MAD, but I totally respect this persons winbolo skills. Not only that I respect him as a person for playing the way he does. So yeah I blocked him in, and I would do it again if he gave me that chance. THIS IS WAR!!!!!! If this kind of playing upsets people I suggest they play monopoly or checkers. I know that my opinion on this matter does not concur with a certain portion of the winbolo community. I just want to know how all of you feel about this. I want to repeat once more that this is not to continue an argument but to gain clarification on this matter. I also want to say in closing that I really wish that the way I play winbolo did not have such a negative effect on a fellow winboloer that I am choosing to remain unnamed, and that I wish we could still TALK and PLAY winbolo together despite our differences on this matter. Even though this upsets me and this person will probably never play in a game I am in. I will not change my personal opinion on how WAR games should be played. IN WAR ANYTHING GOES!!!!!!!!!!! Agree or Disagree?

Beyond calling the game and holding (and hacking), there's really no community-wide set of rules and the way the games play just depends on who's playing them.

well traditionally since mac bolo days there has been a basic code of player conduct commonaly called "bolo ettiquette". when winbolo started it was transferred over at some point and posted on winbolo.com here
http://www.winbolo.com/guides.php
but there has always been a debate about rules pertaining to mining and deforresting however in the original bolo faq itself a prefferred style of using restraint in mining and deforresting was expressed for bolo games.

http://www.lgm.com/bolo/guides/longfaq.html#etiquette

"2.7.3 Bolo netiquette: being extra nice!
While the above rules are universally accepted by all Bolo players, the following suggestions are more controversial. They involve tactics which are often an important part of Bolo, but when used inappropriately can turn an otherwise enjoyable game into a frustrating ordeal. As a new player trying to build a good reputation, you should be aware of these things that really annoy some people:
Avoid moving or farming trees before the official "go" is given.
Avoid carpet mining, which is the deliberate planting of large mine fields for no real purpose other than to annoy. It's time consuming and not really effective anyway. It is acceptable to spew mines to deter pursuing tanks or to create a defensive front.
Base raping is the practice of repeatedly killing your enemy's bases. While base raping is very effective on small maps with few safe bases, be aware that it takes considerable talent and experience to win by base raping alone, and if you initiate a base rape, be prepared to be raped right back! "

this policy was listed at fireice's winbolo site before it was taken down as well. there have been many other threads on this topic over this years, for example this one from 2003...
http://www.winbolo.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=6256

in my view this is enough controversy over this issue that if the group you are playing with is playing a certain style whether more restrained or all out rampage you should discuss the issue before starting play. if u hold back in a rampage game you will hurt your allies and they will not understand your restraint and if you devastate the map with mines and clear trees like International Paper Co on overtime you will upset your opponents and ruin the general goodwill of the bolo community. please recognize that their are significant numbers of players on each side of this issue and that at a bare minimum you should announce your views to your opponents before "GO" is called so there will be no misunderstanding of the agreed parameters of competition.

i would further suggest that if there is a dispute as of which style to play by, rampage or restraint, a vote should be taken of present players and the most votes decides the style. In event of a tie go to this site and flip a virtual coin to decide.
http://www.random.org/coins/?num=1&cur=60-usd.0050c

lets try to be honest where we stand before the games begin and avoid stupid arguments that are really matters of taste. honesty is the real issue. let players know what they are in for and they can play accordingly or decide if they even want to participate.

There are no "rules" after go, but there is definitely etiquette. Personally, I play Winbolo to have fun. I certainly play to win too, but I don't want to play to win in a way which uses tactics which don't take skill and ends games quickly. If there are players who do play that way consistently I will tend to avoid them because it removes the fun factor.

I would say I play to win except, I don't win very often. And play for fun? Yeah, sorry, rarely anyone here plays for fun.

More than likely, I assume this is all over someone crying about laying mines or walling in an LGM or killing trees. That's too bad. They should get some valid tactics besides "group a bunch of pills together and see who wins".

Anything goes camp, if you go to your enemies quad, plant a spike, lose your lgm, and then it gets blocked on return. Thats a choice you made in the game. If you go over to your enemies quad, and they manage to block you in..... thats a choice you made in the game. If you don't like those things happening to you. Don't play that way. I've -never- been blocked in a strict game while it was still in progress, yet somehow manage to pretty effeciently backharrass people. If you take risks, take your lumps when they are handed to you. I've lost 1x1's with bad players becuase I risked my lgm in a bad spot and it got blocked in. That was a bad choice I made. Tree killing, mining, blocking(tanks,lgms,bases) are all valid tactics. And they all have their place in the game.

Min

I agree with Min on this one. In my view, unless it is a handicap game (uneven number of players) tree killing, mining, and walling (be it tanks, lgms, spawns or bases) during the game is perfectly fine. If you don't like it, make it clear before the game has started with the other players.

i think if u take a sample of game logs and watch them you will find most people play strict games with a certain level of restraint when it comes to deforresting / mining. i am a member of the restraint camp and will be honest about that. i find mining and deforresting (excessively) makes the game generally unenjoyable especially on some maps that dont have many trees to begin with. i feel all out war craziness works best in open games since there is free ammo and u can continue to play without worrying about access to bases to refuel so driving over shattered terrain is less of an issue. i used to feel there was a bolo rule about this issue but i realize that winbolo has a mixed community of new and older players who want different things from the game. all i suggest is we state our preferences for what kind of game we want before we begin. for example: if i dont want to play a game because others want to play a certain style, map, teams, etc. ill leave and let them do it. but... i need to know ahead of time NOT in the middle of the game.

also as to the point that winbolo "allows" a player to mass mine and deforrest and such, i think people forget that winbolo is a "beta" version of a game without complete features or options that could be offered to resolve these issues. the game's openendedness grants a certain freedom but it also creates problems. For example, bolo at one time did not have a "locking" capability so that anyone could join a game at any time and this made playing strict team games difficult. a rule was created to stop ppl from joining in the middle of games and ruining them but of course some ppl argued that the game allowed it so they did it anyway. the problem really wasnt solved completely until a locking feature was added. soo if bolo added a feature where u could (as an option) increase the tree regrowth rate and make self repairing terrain after a certain amount of time or to not allow flooding of terrain "map integrity" than maybe these issues would go away as well. until or unless this happens we need to get along and be honest about our intentions when setting up strict games and not suddenly decide to mass mine during a game because we are upset. everyones probably done it but it rarely makes the game better IMO.
as to the walling in of lgms and tanks i have no problem with that really although i rarely do it. if u are slow or foolish enough to get walled in youd better hope your ally likes you or can raise bail. walling in lgms i dislike more but i agree its a valid tactic. maybe i should use it more but i just like shootin the little buggers too much.... 8)

I don't agree with you lance, people do not play with restraint as you claim. Its just that the tactics we're refering to only work well in certain situations. Which do not come up that often. I'm not gunna start every game by driving over to your quad and killing your tree's. Thats just retarded. But if your down to one quad, have more pills than me, and are obviously outpillwaring me. I'm going to kill your tree's so you have to go further to get them. The other option is just to hit your pillline hard and fast over and over until you use up all your tree's. Killing them just means your not purposely drawing out the game. Same sort of thing goes for mining, alot of time, people don't mine at the right time, the lose a tank full of ammo, lose their life, and end up wasting anywhere up to a minute respawning, getting ammo again, and getting back to their pillline. In this time its very easy to simply just .... take their stuff. Mining excessively is very risky and typically only comes out when the game is stalemated. Or if one side needs to slow down a much faster team. I'm not a moron, I'm not going to pillwar with a team that is obviously better at it then me. I'm going to mine them instead. Its just ticks people off becuase they know they could win if they bothered laying tarmac.

Min

I think that this is only coming about due to increase in large games (3x3 or above). In a 1x1 or 2x2, rarely do attrition tactics find their way into the game. This is because you actually need to be productive in some way or back up your partner when he loses an LGM or whatever.

However, in these larger games, as many people have noticed, the cohesiveness as a team falls apart and strategy and tactics go out the fucking window. This is partly due to the fact that each player has a smaller area of effect. Look at Chew Toy 3 and place two players (1x1) on there. Look how much land those two have to cover. Now place 6 players on there (3x3) and notice how much less territory each player has to be responsible for. Everyone thinks, "Oh, my allies will come help me when I'm in trouble," when in reality they won't because they're dealing with the same shit you are.

Doubles and decoys go wrong in these huge games, players die and spawn on the other side of the map. So while they are there they back-harrass and try to stir up some shit. Of course they die and due to some fucked up starting algorithm, start behind enemy lines again. Repeat 4x.

Or what if a player loses his LGM? If everyone else has theirs and the base and pill situation is firm, why not go mine a critical path between the enemy's territory and rape a base or two? Keep in mind that's not always the most optimal thing to do as he could be used as a decoy, or help double, or help sweep pills, but it's being productive towards a win.

Another thing is that players don't tarmac. Seriously. I can't tell you how many time I've dropped a few mines and seen the craters there 10 minutes later. Stupid.

And don't tell me about playing for fun. Anyone who argues after a game sure as shit ain't playing for fun or else you wouldn't have cared what happened during the game or the outcome.

Thank you everybody for your responses, they were very helpful to me. From what I can tell most people agree with me on these issues. I guess I should tell you the actual situation that gave rise to this post. I am going to try and describe it the way it happened without my personal opinion influencing the way I tell it. Here it goes

This was a 2x2 with very even teams as far as I could tell. It was about 10 or 15 minutes into the game. Pills were fairly equal, they actually had one or two more, but for the most part the game was pretty equal on the winning scale. The pills were in the middle in a fairly straight pill line. This effectively blocked each team from refueling on four bases. Leaving only two bases in each quad to refuel on. Because the game was not going anywhere soon my ally decided to go to there quads and put blocks around there bases while I watched the pill line. I can only imagine that my ally was nearly done or done blocking the bases when on of our enemies spawned in one of our quads and started back harassing me. I shot him a couple times to deter him but he did not stop. Which is fine I wouldn't have either. At that point I tried to block him in, he managed to get away. Keep in mind that his ally was attempting to take pills in the center, which I had no way to repair because his ally was back harassing me. I was just about to start repairing pills when I started getting back harassed by this person again. At this point I was not able to repair pills for 30 to 45 seconds because of this guy. I blocked him in. He made his ally aware of the situation. When his ally went to refuel so he could come get his ally he couldn't because all his bases where blocked in. The game was over. I know this because his ally was trying to refuel on center bases that had several pills shooting at him.

Thats what took place. After the game one of them chewed me out for an hour or better. This happened to be the guy who didn't get blocked in. He was pissed about the game. He said a lot of things but his main argument was that I was a "cheap player", and he will no longer play bolo with me because I don't play to have fun I play to win and will do anything it takes to win, eliminating the fun factor of the game.

This is my argument. This person back harasses me a lot. As far as I am concerned every time he does that he takes the risk of getting blocked in. The odds caught up to him this game. I applaud this person for his maturity on this matter especially because if he wanted to be sore about it he had someone that would back up any comment that he said. He was not sore about it. It is just a game after all. This person I am talking about happens to be 9-10 years younger than everyone else in the game. I don't want him to get a big head when he reads this but he is definitely a more mature at his age than I ever was.

I would like to apologize for my immaturity later that night. Several hours after this all took place and I had cooled down I tried to make an amends with this person. He completely ignored me in ventrillo when I spoke to him about making up. I said some really shitty things at that point which I wish I hadn't. So if you are him and happen to be reading this I am sorry for those comments.

It is to bad that he will no longer play with me because he is a decent bolo player skill wise and there are fewer and fewer of them around bolo these days. I have been playing bolo for 13 years now and have no intention of stopping anytime soon. I know this person has a few years under his belt as well. So he will have to at least tolerate me. I guess he could ignore me forever, but that would just be silly.

If anyone that was in that game does not feel like this was an accurate description of the game please post a comment.

Anyone that has played a game with me in the last decade besides this person knows that I am not a cheap player and play for fun to. I think winning is funner than loosing. And in certain circumstances will do things I have to do to win. I honestly have no fun winning win my enemy does nothing to stop me. I encourage people to do the same to me. It's fun being ruthless!!!!

Please excuse my grammar and typo's in my last post. I was in a hurry. Thanls

I don't know if most people actually agree with you. I feel it's closer to 50/50 or maybe even in favor of not using attrition tactics. It's just that the ones that do agree with you are vocal about it simply because we have to talk over all the other whining about it.

Would you happen to have a log of this game? I wouldn't mind seeing how it went down. The fact that your ally walled in at least four of their bases without them knowing sounds quite admirable on what sounds like CT3. Moreso because it rarely works and because it sounds like it was a stale-mate and players should be watching their back bases.

I've run into your situation before. I walled in someone in a strict and they pretty much quit once they were caught. Good players know that because of the unpredictability of tank collision/physics in WinBolo, it's a crap shoot to try and pin tanks behind fire, especially when you have no shells.

People need to realize that whatever actions you take in this game, they all have consequences.

http://www.winbolo.net/gamelog.php?mode=logfile&key=c90437228491935a6061767c7430bf59

I totally agree with E-Dawg that this game is about war. Do the shit you gotta do to win. You got us good. It was quick, and timed perfectly.

I just hope you realize that we were not "crying". Like anyone, we were bummed about the way the shit went down. Seriously, I do not think anyone would want to lose that way.

After viewing the log, HR can only blame himself for not clearing at least one block out of the way from at least two bases, not NOTHING for walling them in.

And yeah, thats one hell of a finish. Gotta be one of the best I've seen.

00:01 - HomophobicRacist@98.224.230.187 has joined game

Addbot [somthingso@c-98-224-230-187.hsd1.mi.comcast.net]: Addboy

Add's walled people in before, and so has Harl.. that's pretty interesting that one of them would complain about their own tactics when it's used against them. :cry:

I forgive you Edawg

I would actually like to hear the ventrillo log of that game now after watching the game log :)

including post conversation...

jhood wrote:

00:01 - HomophobicRacist@98.224.230.187 has joined game

Addbot [somthingso@c-98-224-230-187.hsd1.mi.comcast.net]: Addboy

Add's walled people in before, and so has Harl.. that's pretty interesting that one of them would complain about their own tactics when it's used against them. :cry:

Let me clarify. I am in no way complaining about being blocked in. All I said to E-Dawg after was that was dirty. And I agree with him, I took a risk when I went to back harass him.

As for blocking other people in, I have done it before.

Karma?

I just want to metion that Harl in no way cried about the game. I honestly don't even remember him saying that it was dirty. I couldn't honestly hear anything over what his ally was saying!!! But that is is in the past. He and I spoke today!! I am happy about that. So yeah, he was mad and took it out on me, but as long as he is over it so am I. Trust me when I tell you nobody wants to hear the ventrillo post conversation. It's bad enough to make you not want to play bolo any more. Thank you for forgiving me ZAP!!! heh. I honestly played terrible skill wise that game. Luckily NOTHING had a strong start and we were able to recover from one of the worst starts I have ever had. Thanks NOTHING!!!!!

i tend to agree with sticks about the fact that the problem of mass mining and deforresting is really a problem in large player strict games. in a 1x1 or even a 2x2 spending a lot of time on those tactics can really cost you as min pointed out. in the large games tho it becomes easier for 2 players to guard pill lines and send out 1 or more others to ravage the map. this is where i have a problem and i think the game can become very unenjoyable. i guess my number one wish for an in game fix to this would be that the tree regrowth rate increased more as the player numbers in game increased. if it was harder to deforrest at least u could get trees and repair mined areas better. then the issue would be less or a problem as the cost/benefit ratio of these tactics would be less.

Basicly i think in any strict walling one's lgm is a terrific way to start winning, But if its been walled twice or more i think its cheating thats just my opinion. Walling a tank is a diffrent story cause u automaticly start with nothing and for examle starting at emeny's quad if u get walled your fucked.. and your team has to come resuce you or not even come at all if its a 1x1, i also think thats cheating.

Carpet mineing, I think there should be a 10 mine limit in strict maps, yes its a strategy but carpet mineing is noobish and it destroys the map


Just thought id throw in my 2 cents

~LuCkY

comparison of being able to crash into a game cuz you couldnt lock and the ability to drop mines and shoot trees are not a good comparison in my mind. thats like saying being able to castle in chess is the same as being able to flip the board over. and i disagree winbolo is a 'beta'. it is a standalone developed product. clearly if it was beta it would be listed as beta.

mining and deforesting are only useful in certain situations, just like hardlining, back harrassing, and raping are useful in certain situations. the solution is to play a map that is less prone to that play style (low rubble, tons of trees). Just like if you dont like pill warring, play better best map ever or even oil rig.

i cant tell you how many games ive beaten players like ren when they went and tried to mine me out. i kill them, and set up and do a take. they get a bad spawn and i take out their whole line. its a risk to mine a lot of the time cuz you might die prematurely, you might die to your own mines, it might not even do anything if they have trees and can tarmac , etc etc etc. Again, if you don't like that strategy, the solution is to play maps that do not reward that game style or have an agreement before hand. It is no more reasonable in my mind to say that mining is any less 'honorable' than having superior pill war skills or raping or anything else in the game. if you know you are prone to mining, pull back the line, put some back pills in there. or apply pressure faster than they can react, and tarmac.

again we seem to be talking about a 1x1 here "i beat ren doing this... etc"
im all for doing whatever in a 1x1. its the large games where the issue comes in. more players more mines more destruction more players to cover pill lines so u really dont pay a price for doing it.

and to me the locking issue is a good comparsion. its a game feature the was added to solve a problem. bolo can be played as a free flowing game with no set teams just like our opens are usually played. theres no built in feature that says stricts must be different we have CHOSEN to make them different because we desire a different kind of game. we could build in features to the game like preselected starts a timer and preselected alliances to facilitate all this but we havent.

i also said it was like a beta its not sold in stores doesnt have professional staff of tech support and no enforcement of rules like world of warcraft or something. i like winbolo and appreciate the pro bono efforts of all in the community but the result is different from a gamehouse doing a real release IMO.

There is no "ettiqute" when it comes to WAR