Goodbye ... tired of the bullsh*t

derami wrote:

all of this good old days talk is just silly to me ... i played bolo 10 years ago, and there was just as much random interpersonal bullshit back then as their is now. why does everyone wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to the past?

well der, in this particular case, sticks is correct. If you don't believe me, feel free to have a look at the line count statistics that sheeps posted awhile back. When me and sticks played regularly, I was able to consistantly get a game at almost any time of night. Especially around the time before the IBL, when people from other time zones played such as unknown soldier. When was the last time you had a series of 10+ games in a row without 2 hours of bitching between each one? most of the time people like myself, or mac, would just start a new game.

Min

i'm not contesting the fact that there used to be more games going and i'm not sure how i gave you that impression, min :/ i'm just saying: bolo wasn't hugs-and-feel-good-moments ten years ago, just like it isn't today. there are big personalities now just like there were then.

perhaps because you're not actually playing the game these days you don't see the other side of things- namely, that most of the bitching that goes on between games happens while people slowly filter into a new game, not *instead* of games.

as someone else mentioned, people ally face (zzz), for example, in part because of a limited playing pool of semi-skilled players who can be reasonably trusted not to ally all, even tho he is a dick. if the pool were bigger, we could ignore the idiots altogether.

point being: if the player pool were bigger, and the stricts formed faster, you wouldn't see as much of the random bitching that is happening, in large part, because the straglers are still joining the new strict, or because we've been forced to include people who play cheap and screw up games on purpose ... i dunno, just my thoughts as a playa ;)

conclusion: invite your friends to play bolo! spread the good word of the 2-D tank game! let's get enough folks here so we can play when we want to, and exclude the people who only want to mess up the game

-= der

derami wrote:

i'm not contesting the fact that there used to be more games going and i'm not sure how i gave you that impression, min :/ i'm just saying: bolo wasn't hugs-and-feel-good-moments ten years ago, just like it isn't today. there are big personalities now just like there were then.

uh, perhaps becuase sticks was talking about the number of games that were being played. If you read his post, he didn't say anything about people being nicer to each other back then. Just that there was alot more games being played. At the end of his post, he mentions that he doesn't know whats worse, open game trash talk, or post-game-blame ..... so to me, saying 'why does everyone view the past through rose-coloured glasses' was in fact contesting what sticks post was actually about. ... the number of games being played. And if you weren't refering to that ..... uh ..... whats the point of your post? ....

Min

Min ... I'm not sure how we managed to wander this far off-topic. My original post was not a response to Sticks per se - it just happened to come right after his post. I was originally speaking to comments by x-man, LRL, etc... who seemed to be implying that they were fed up with some new change in the vibe of bolo, which I personally don't see.

My second post was largely a response to the follow comment YOU made: "When was the last time you had a series of 10+ games in a row without 2 hours of bitching between each one? most of the time people like myself, or mac, would just start a new game"

I took that to mean that, in your opinion, people now would often prefer to bitch rather than play - a change from the past. My counterpoint was merely that this might be the result of a smaller playing pool - people shit-talking in MIRC because we're waiting for a new game to start.

And to answer your question: I probably end up in a ten-game set about once a week with no bitching in between - it just depends upon how many and which players are around ... *shrug*

I wasn't trying to suggest that your opinion isn't valid, just that you have a somewhat different perspective if you only see what goes on in MIRC, and not the other half of things - what goes on inside of the games.

MEANWHILE: recruit more boloers so we can all stop yammering!

I hope that clarifies things somewhat ...

-= Der

derami wrote:

Min ... I'm not sure how we managed to wander this far off-topic. My original post was not a response to Sticks per se - it just happened to come right after his post. I was originally speaking to comments by x-man, LRL, etc... who seemed to be implying that they were fed up with some new change in the vibe of bolo, which I personally don't see.

eh, ok ... heh, I don't really see it either, people tended to be a bit nicer back then to each other (becuase if they weren't, I'd end up kick banning them, which I guess after awhile people got pissed about ... well, mostly just fi.) but thats about it.

derami wrote:

My second post was largely a response to the follow comment YOU made: "When was the last time you had a series of 10+ games in a row without 2 hours of bitching between each one? most of the time people like myself, or mac, would just start a new game"

The bitching back then was typically a bit more too the point. We would bitch hardcore for a few minutes, then someone would start a new one and we'd all join. Sometimes there would be no bitching. Depends on who was playing.

derami wrote:

I took that to mean that, in your opinion, people now would often prefer to bitch rather than play - a change from the past. My counterpoint was merely that this might be the result of a smaller playing pool - people shit-talking in MIRC because we're waiting for a new game to start.

after seeing some of the bitchfests in #winbolo in the past 6 months, It seems people would rather bitch than play honestly.

derami wrote:

And to answer your question: I probably end up in a ten-game set about once a week with no bitching in between - it just depends upon how many and which players are around ... *shrug*

really? .... interesting are these open games, or stricts? ... I'm mostly talking strict games.

derami wrote:

I wasn't trying to suggest that your opinion isn't valid, just that you have a somewhat different perspective if you only see what goes on in MIRC, and not the other half of things - what goes on inside of the games.

eh, I've been around this community for like ... 6 or 7 years, pretty sure I've got a feel for whats going on in games, I do still play occasionally as well. Just havn't bothered lately. not to mention the irc server keeps disconnecting me for some reason. very annoying.

Min

hokay, well, i'll respond to your last two comments:

10-in-a-row strict sets is what i'm referring to. probably an average of one (that i am personally involved in - maybe/probably more when i'm not) a week. one or two players might leave/join during, so it's not necessarily the exact same teams from game to game or anything. anyone else care to pipe in on this one? agree or disagree?

min: i really really really don't see how you could possibly know what is going on in strict games since you virtually never play in them - unless you are spying through the log viewer :) if you see only what is typed in mirc, you are missing a huge component of what is being typed and played *in total* including in-game. i'm sure you have a 'feel' for what it might be like, but you stiill aren't seeing the other side of the coin.

what i'm getting at is that if you see a bunch of bitching going on in mirc, but don't realize that it's because the three people who are bitching are in a strict waiting for a fourth and just killing time, not bitching instead of playing, then you will, as a result, have a somewhat different take on what is going on.

-= der

derami wrote:

min: i really really really don't see how you could possibly know what is going on in strict games since you virtually never play in them - unless you are spying through the log viewer :) if you see only what is typed in mirc, you are missing a huge component of what is being typed and played *in total* including in-game. i'm sure you have a 'feel' for what it might be like, but you stiill aren't seeing the other side of the coin.

what i'm getting at is that if you see a bunch of bitching going on in mirc, but don't realize that it's because the three people who are bitching are in a strict waiting for a fourth and just killing time, not bitching instead of playing, then you will, as a result, have a somewhat different take on what is going on.

I've played 10's of thousands of hours of bolo derami, you honestly believe that I don't know what goes on in games? ...... are you seriously suggesting that how people act in games has changed in the past 4 months?

Min

what i'm getting at is that if you see a bunch of bitching going on in mirc, but don't realize that it's because the three people who are bitching are in a strict waiting for a fourth and just killing time, not bitching instead of playing, then you will, as a result, have a somewhat different take on what is going on.

In all sincerity, if Min's played the game for that long, wouldn't you think - since the game sequence rarely changes - that he'd already know that?

.. just that you have a somewhat different perspective if you only see what goes on in MIRC, and not the other half of things - what goes on inside of the games.

I'm neutral here, and this has nothing to do with anything between me or you, but I've noticed that you're more likely to either forget or disregard what isn't right in front of you. There's proof in posts you've made in various places around wbn and compared to Min's post I think my statement is pretty solid.

Edit: I starting typing before min posted above, so mine is in reference to derami's post. :)

hood... i've read and reread your second paragraph, and i honestly have no idea why you would make a random comment about me 'not paying attention to what is right in front of me,' and use, as your reference point, my very even-handed comment about how min and i are just seeing things from two different perspectives. if anything, the passage you quoted shows that i'm actually looking at both sides of the issue, right? you say you're neutral and that this has nothing to do with anything between you and i, but then you made an irrelevant post that vaguely critiizes me but not in any way that pertains to the topic - why? if you want to make a comment that is actually neutral, mature, well-reasoned and at least remotely pertinent, please do, otherwise: why not just mind your own business or just openly trash-talk?

min and hood ... would one of you please, possibly, just maybe, respond to what i'm actually saying?

min: "I've played 10's of thousands of hours of bolo derami, you honestly believe that I don't know what goes on in games?" i nevever said, nor remotely suggested, that you didn't know what goes on in games, min. what i was talking about, if you bothered to pay attention, was that - as a person in MIRC who is not looking at the list of active games via the tracker or .net - you are NOT aware of what is ACTUALLY taking place in terms of active games at *any given time* in realtime. your statement only shows that you read MY statement with a preconceived notion of what my intentions and argument were, rather than objectively assessing the information right in front of you.

since you don't seem to be getting what i'm saying, i'm going to try to spell it out very clearly and simply. on a given day, let's say there are 4 people in MIRC. you, me, and 2 other players. you see me and the other 2 players bitching back and forth about a previous game for quite some time. as it turns out, me and these two players are both idling in a NEW game, and hoping for a fourth participant. however, because you are just in MIRC and not looking at the list of active games and/or yourself pursuing participation in game, you perceive that we are arguing *rather than playing a game.* this, however, is not necessarily the case. from your perspective, it may *appear* that our priority is arguing, but, in fact, we may well be killing time rather than just waiting. so, from your perspective, it might look like: 'wow, three of the only four active people here are bitching! there sure is a lot more bitching these days on mirc!' whereas from MY perspective, it might look like 'shit, i wanna play a game, but no game is going on, so sure, i'll sit and respond to person X who has some gripe about the last game until a game starts'

i'm not saying that the above example is always the case, i'm just trying to make a point about the possible correlation between a decreased player pool and an 'apparent' increase in game-related bitching. specifically, that the former could be a cause of the latter.

back to you, hood:

Der: "what i'm getting at is that if you see a bunch of bitching going on in mirc, but don't realize that it's because the three people who are bitching are in a strict waiting for a fourth and just killing time, not bitching instead of playing, then you will, as a result, have a somewhat different take on what is going on."

Hood: "In all sincerity, if Min's played the game for that long, wouldn't you think - since the game sequence rarely changes - that he'd already know that?"

hood, if min 'already knew that' then he wouldn't be arguing with me about it, would he? otherwise, what is your point?

back to you min:

min: "are you seriously suggesting that how people act in games has changed in the past 4 months?"

on the one hand, you want to be an 'authority' on how the nature of the winbolo community has changed over time, and how it is today vs. years ago. on the other hand, you want to imply that it is *laughable* to suggest it has changed in the last four months. which is it, min?

i would greatly appreciate an ACTUAL neutral third party weighing in on this somewhat unecessarily prolonged debate. perhaps that could shed some clarity on one or both sides of the issue.

-= der

asd

derami wrote:

min and hood ... would one of you please, possibly, just maybe, respond to what i'm actually saying?

your statement only shows that you read MY statement with a preconceived notion of what my intentions and argument were, rather than objectively assessing the information right in front of you.

preconceived notions of what your intentions and arguement's are.... strange, I was responding to the arguements you've displayed in the past few pages of this post..... I don't see how that has anything to be with proconceived notions.

derami wrote:

since you don't seem to be getting what i'm saying, i'm going to try to spell it out very clearly and simply. on day X, there are 4 people in MIRC. you, me, and 2 other players. you see me and the other 2 players bitching back and forth about a previous game for quite some time. as it turns out, me and these two players are both idling in a NEW game, and hoping for a fourth participant. however, because you are just in MIRC and not looking at the list of active games and/or yourself pursuing participation in game, you perceive that we are arguing *rather than playing a game.* this, however, is not necessarily the case. from your perspective, it may *appear* that our priority is arguing, but, in fact, we may well be killing time rather than just waiting.

uh, I'm 'getting' what your saying derami, see, thing about irc is, typically, you start games there, so I can just sit there, watching how many games people start to get an idea of how frequently people are actually playing the game. Obviously you've been missing my point, but since I've only really made two, I'll sum them up for you here.

1) There was typically more active players 5 years ago. This is gauged by how easily we used to get games going, vs how easy it is to currently get games. And by the number of games we typically played.

2) People bitch more now. Period. I don't care if your idling in a game, mastrubating, whatever, the bitching is more prolonged than it was 5 years ago. And typically now, it has alot more to do with blame. Perhaps this was becuase people were more readily kicked/banned for behavior back then, perhaps its not, it doesn't matter.

That is all. I've really got nothing more to add/say. There is nothing to debate. You seem to believe that I'm incorrect becuase of my 'limited' perception. My point on that was, I've been here a long time, I can see whats going on, it mirrors history. Your welcome to disagree. Like I said, nothing more to say.

Min

Min-

I completely agree with your first point. That is a pretty solid fact, though on the details I have to (as I've said) disagree - 10 games in sequence aren't that uncommon, but, on other days (like today) all 16 active players are crammed in an open (16 is a fair number to have at once on random weekday I think) But yes, overall, fewer games, perhaps (particularly stricts) than 5 years ago.

As to your second point: as you have framed it in this most recent post, sure, I could also agree that maybe there is 'more' bitching. However, you seem to imply that this has to do with a change in the general tone or lack of 'niceness' - I'm merely suggesting a potentially alternate cause.

Min "after seeing some of the bitchfests in #winbolo in the past 6 months, It seems people would rather bitch than play honestly." - that is what my example of the people in MIRC (who are also in game) was addressing. you say that it 'seems' this way to you, fine, but you have no idea what is going on in the game - maybe we're bitching WHILE waiting to play, not INSTEAD of playing. All I'm saying is: how would you know if people would rather bitch than play, if you yourself are not waiting in one or all of the active games to play, and are, instead, just in MIRC?

Anyway, Min, I'm happy to concede that you are an 'authority' on Winbolo 5 years ago. But you don't need to get indignant when i suggest that I have a different perspective than you on Winbolo today, as an active player.

Meanwhile, let's all try to keep the bitching down in MIrc and in games, let's all invite some friends so we have a good, healthy player pool, and, above all, BE EXCELLENT TO EACH OTHER! =D

-= der

PS Min "people tended to be a bit nicer back then to each other (becuase if they weren't, I'd end up kick banning them" - you used to ban people for being mean? i'm glad i wasn't around during this draconian period :) regardless, 10 years ago, people weren't any nicer, IMHO.

It's not random when you consider our last conversation in irc.

From what I read, you were suggesting to Min that he was incapable of understanding what goes on in games, while disregarding the fact that he's played the game since 92 and would obviously know better. I stated that based on previous posts for the both of you, you were the one that's less likely to be able to infer based on past experience. No hidden agenda from me.

hood, if min 'already knew that' then he wouldn't be arguing with me about it, would he? otherwise, what is your point?

Could you explain that one? It's pretty early so maybe I missed something but what I got was: "min, you can't quite grasp what's going on unless you're in the game with us". That's a pretty simple concept, and it's just as simple to infer what IS in fact going on in the game based on past games, but your reply was that you're still giving Min the doubt that he's not bright enough to get either concept?
Anyway..

My point is that looking at his score, his logs, his irc conversations, and everything else that has given me a solid foundation on which to base my opinion other than a tainted viewpoint, his knowledge and understanding of this game, on both platforms, is probably still considered the most sought-after athoritive insight in this community. And here you are, someone who started what, nine months ago? and you're telling HIM he's not able to understand the game? I don't think so.

derami wrote:

Meanwhile, let's all try to keep the bitching down in MIrc and in games, let's all invite some friends so we have a good, healthy player pool, and, above all, BE EXCELLENT TO EACH OTHER! =D

I AGREE !!!

I prefer to loose 10 games with friendly team members, whatever skill they have, instead to win 1 game with only 1 unpleasant member in my team.

KEEP COOL WITH EVERYBODY !!! IT'S ONLY A GAME...
SMILE IN EVERY SITUATION : NOTHING IS DRAMATIC FOR YOUR LIFE IN A GAME :D

you say that it 'seems' this way to you, fine, but you have no idea what is going on in the game - maybe we're bitching WHILE waiting to play, not INSTEAD of playing. All I'm saying is: how would you know if people would rather bitch than play, if you yourself are not waiting in one or all of the active games to play, and are, instead, just in MIRC?

That's what I don't get. Lot's of players idle in game and/or talk in irc while waiting, so why would you suggest that Min wouldn't be able to grasp that concept without seeing it first hand? Or am I off on that one?
That's where my "you're more likely to disregard what isn't in front of you" came from, as based on previous experience with you. You seem less likely to know what's going on without being there, which isn't an insult.

If I wanted to insult you I'd trash your bolo skill.

SMILE IN EVERY SITUATION

No. :D

SMILE IN EVERY SITUATION

That's nigh impossible if your dentist is trying to unhinge your jaw.

If you can't smile, then just try or think to it ! :D

Hood: I thought I'd said it a few times in a few different ways, but I obviously wasn't clear enough, so I'll try to restate it. I realize and recognize that Min knows there is another side to things, and can probably guess, at times, what is going on in games he is not in. That wasn't my point.

What I'm getting at is perhaps broader than I have stated so far (except with my initial comment concerning 'rose-colored glasses'): that a lot of people who don't play anymore make generalizations about the current state of the game, and about its development over time, but that the perspectives of those who play AND are in MIrc are bound to be different from the perspectives of those who are only in MIrc.

I, for one, have had many good nights of play - long sets of stricts, relatively uninterupted, with fun players like Kat, Siren Chaps, Tip, Spin, Bruce, Bran, Ren, Wan, Lazer, Foxx, and the list goes on ... but because they were fun, and relatively continuous, they didn't show up much on MIrc (in some cases, half those players never joined MIrc - they were messaged separately and/or knew the passwords so they just wandered in). As I said before, I'm not saying Min is 'wrong,' he just has a different perspective basd on his current level of engagement with the game.

If he isn't willing to entertain the possibility that there have been any changes whatsoever over the past 4 months, then I don't see how he can make such strong assertions about changes over the last 5 years.

Sure, maybe there are fewer games and more bitching now on the whole, but I think Min's formulation of the situation is, perhaps, somewhat overstated ... at least from my perspective. Sure, there are times (like just now in MIrc when no games where going on) when people are actively being negative for no apparent reason, other than to inflate their egos at the expense of others. Other players also come to MIrc to bitch at each other about losing games, or whatever. So, while I take your point, and think there is truth in it, I'm just not sure it covers the whole issue.

Hood, I started ten years ago, not 7 months ... I just took 9 years off ;)

If there is a moral of this story, I suppose maybe iit is that: MIrc is what we make it, and I'm going to try - for my own part - to make it about games and chat rather than mindless mudslinging. This discussion has dragged on a bit too long I guess ... I learned something from it, I hope others did too :)

-= der

derami wrote:

PS Min "people tended to be a bit nicer back then to each other (becuase if they weren't, I'd end up kick banning them" - you used to ban people for being mean? i'm glad i wasn't around during this draconian period :) regardless, 10 years ago, people weren't any nicer, IMHO.

I guess you never hung out in #bolo .... the people in #bolo banned for less than what I did(I've seen people kick/banned from #bolo for bad grammar for example). I typically kicked people based on what they were saying, if they started attacking other players they would be removed for a short time. These typically ment people were nicer to each other, becuase if they weren't, they'd be removed. Some people liked it better that way, some people didn't. Doesn't matter at this point.

Beyond that, you've really said nothing new. My points havn't changed, and I have nothing further to add. Other than its pretty obvious that you think I'm pretty stupid or something....

Min

Minnnnnnnn ... naw, you're clearly very smart. As I said, I just think there's a different perspective afforded by actively playing the game. It's hard to tell the tone of comments online, I'm constantly reminded. I didn't mean to assault your ability to observe and analyze the world o winbolo, or you knowledge of what's going on. Frankly, I think my lack of experience and time spent online is showing up again - I intend things to be respectful, but they are sometimes not read that way, then I read what *others* say as disrespectful, only to be told that it wasn't meant that way. Maybe I'll figure it out, or maybe I'll just give up lol <<<<<<<<<<<<<<333333333333333 MIN (in a purely sexual way)

-= der

Quite frankly, I feel there was a change from the past macbolo, and even the past winbolo to present form. I don’t think it was necessarily the attitudes of others, however, I do feel that certain individuals more then others have challenged that thought. Where did things start to go wrong? The split of .com to .us, seemed to have had detrimental effects on who attended now vs. then. As me and Flad were reminiscing the other day there were oodles and oodles of players that we loved and respected for there love to the game and contributions to ours and there entertainment. A lot of those people were transparent and vanished during or very close to the split of the communities. I see more and more hacking today then ever, if one was even thought to have done so he was not only server banned but banned from the IRC channel as well. Bannable offenses today are by large less threatening and less challenging. Some consider that to be a good thing, some bad. Either way you look at it, take a spoiled kid who has never been told right from wrong, and has always gotten what he wanted just so long as he wasn’t killing someone and was just kicking and screaming to get his way he can do as he must. Then take the kid who was taught right from wrong, taught morals and integrity and disciplined for his wrong actions. This person thought twice possibly even three times before violating rules and authority. This of course isn’t the most solid metaphor, because there are those who rebel from the way they were brought up and turn out just the opposite, however my point is discipline and reprimand has gone down the tubes. And min of all people was left to baby-sit most the spoiled ones and try to knock sense in them. He didn’t have to but he out of the goodness of his heart took the liberty to do so hoping to make a difference and the only they that differed was a revolt exclaiming his actions as dictatorship.

Eh just food for thought, I am well aware of that others are seeing this from another point of view, but they should open there eyes more, and destroy their bias's and really examine this as a whole!

Glad to see my post spawn a shit storm.

The only thing I was implicitly asking was of every player out there: what is worse, the smack talk, mass alliances, and backstabbing in the opens or the pure aggression and frustration occuring after a strict. Because in my opinion, x-man only saw the half of it in his opens. He might've played a few stricts but for the most part, I remember him as an open player.

Min wrote:

Everyone comes back.

Min

True dat ... back to take a peek at v1.17. Let me see ... is it still [space] to shoot this thing?

See, I can tell the future!!. You can set shoot to whatever you want.

Min

....stfu and play.

- lifetime bolo addict.