DELETED THREADS?

Jun 19, 2003 04:34 DELETED THREADS?
Why have posts of mine, lrl and others have been deleted? I know my posts have been polite at all times.
Jun 19, 2003 04:48
Yes, this also boggels my mind...I mean why should the context be edited or deleted. Where is the freedom of speach in that? If stuff like this continues to happen WBN will drop off my list of sites to use or advocate.
Jun 19, 2003 04:49
May I add that in just about all forums I have spent my time posting, it is considered extremely bad manners for a moderator to delete threads or post without explaining why.

It is the quickest and easiest way to get a lot of people angry at the whole forum setup when you delete threads. Closing threads is one thing, but deleting that stirs things up quite a bit, especially with no explanation.
Jun 19, 2003 04:54
I'm planning a Coup any of you want in on it? Let's revolt against the evil moderators that delete stuff.......or maybe......the server ate it......it being on a pentium and all..........stupid pentium
Jun 19, 2003 04:59
heh, Also, one of my threads wuz deleted earlier today (i think by min) It seems that anything the moderators dont like they delete sometymes. This adds to that "conspiracy theory"
Jun 19, 2003 05:39
Whats been deleted?
Jun 19, 2003 05:40
And for the record I have never deleted or locked a topic. What were the topics that are now missing?
Jun 19, 2003 05:51
Well, I don't have a copy of the thread on my hard drive. From memory, it started out as a thread by MaddMaxx in which he started a playfull "Chat". I responded saying hi. Then he responded in an irc fashion playfull chat way that sort of mentions his upsetness toward stick (maddmaxx was originally banned from #winbolo by stick).

Then there were a few post by Stick, LRL and maybe someone else explaining to MaddMaxx why he was banned.

The last post I remember on the thread was one I made that just mentioned that Stick only banned him on #winbolo, while Min was the one who server banned him on the .com and .us server.

That's what I remember to the best of my recollection. I hope it helps.
Jun 19, 2003 05:55
Your right, I can't find that topic anymore.
Jun 19, 2003 05:57
Thanx 4 posting that fi. Also, i tried to add another post and it wouldnt let me. i think that some Moderator kept deleting it. i have a copy of the post on my hardrive. Yes, i make copies of my posts b4 posting them because i have had my posts deleted approx 3 times. :x Elvis, Could u plz post a list of all the moderators/administrators?
Jun 19, 2003 05:58
A list can be found by clicking on the usergroups button at the top of the forums.
Jun 19, 2003 05:59
thank u elvis
Jun 19, 2003 06:01
it wuz min who deleted that post, i know it!
Jun 19, 2003 06:03
gotta love how the forums have become a place for people who flood, misbehave in the channel to publicly attack people .... and then when dealt with .... people whine .... why is that again? .... <sarcasm> more and more reasons to stick around </sarcasm>....

Min
Jun 19, 2003 06:31
I too look forward to the day when winbolo is purged of people who can't behave themselves, and who say things that are unappreciated. People have feelings, and when one person criticizes another, those feelings are bound to be hurt. People who attack others have no business posting in a public forum or, in my opinion, even appearing in public. If you go to #bolo, the forum for mac bolo, you'll note that the players are unfailingly polite to one another, and those who insist on being confrontational, annoying, or idiosyncratic are swiftly punished. Likewise, on rec.games.bolo, the newsgroup for mac bolo, I recall few if any instances of one player flaming another.

As Min has said several times, he's on the verge of quitting altogether. I believe that would be an unmitigated disaster for winbolo, because I think we can all honestly say that he's the glue that holds this society together. I think we should all be thankful for the job he does in keeping wbn, as well as #winbolo, free to those who take themselves sufficiently seriously.

Respectfully,

Kax
Jun 19, 2003 13:23
Well, I didn’t see the deleted thread, so I can’t speak directly to that. I can say that it would be great to have transparency in all the actions of those in charge.

I am all for quick and appropriate responses to bad behavior. If someone can’t play teams games and is overly rude, then they are banned from my server. I usually try and give people a warning, and they have the option of talking to me to remove the ban if they have changed their ways, or after some time I remove it myself. This works in some cases and doesn’t in others. But I think there needs to be a way for people to make changes and be welcomed back conditionally into the community and given another chance.

It is very easy for these things to appear like political or personal attacks & counterattacks, which I don’t think is good for the community. If actions are explained to the group, I think most people will understand the rational and support it, and if not, at least they know there were reasons.

The forums should have a Terms of Use attached to them as well. No abuse should be tolerated and if a player refuses to follow the rules, actions like deleting of messages or account should be an option, after being warned. I would think that topics should only be deleted if they go against these policies.

I know I got very tired of #bolo because of its politics and gave up on IRC back then. The times have changed and IRC is much more important to game hosting now, so I hope we can move beyond this.

Oh, and I think there were plenty of flames in r.g.b, and thanks to archiving, they will never be lost...
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=rec.games.bolo
Jun 19, 2003 16:41
as always ... if those in charge spend all their time explaining their actions(which they shouldn't have to in the first place) they will have little time for anything else ... you want transparency so that you can jusitify to yourself that nothing "wrong" has occured ... whatever happened to trust? obviously not to many people have that anymore.

Min
Jun 19, 2003 18:29
Min wrote:
as always ... if those in charge spend all their time explaining their actions(which they shouldn't have to in the first place) they will have little time for anything else ... you want transparency so that you can jusitify to yourself that nothing "wrong" has occured ... whatever happened to trust? obviously not to many people have that anymore.
Min


That’s the joy of a democracy versus a dictatorship; you get to spend your time explaining versus tossing people in prison. I disagree that people shouldn't have to explain their actions, you should be responsible and accountable for them, and that implies explanation. I also disagree that this will leave time for anything else, if something is explained clearly; the issue is done and over. If anything, it quickens a resolution verses prolonging it, but maybe I'm just an idealist.

Not sure where you got the 'justify to yourself that nothing "wrong" has occurred", maybe I wasn’t clear in my point. This was not a personal attack on you at all. If you look at what I posted, I mention that I have no problem "taking action" when necessary, which I do all the time in regards to the things I control like sheepbot. I also don’t think we need graphic details of the infraction, just the degree of it for clarity.

Trust is a great thing, but I don't think we should have blind trust. I trust that the actions were taken in good faith and with a little explanation; I think people will understand that. And I don't even want to get into trust in regards to political leaders...

It might also be good to remember that I don't hear many people disagreeing that action was not necessary, just the way in which it was taken. Maybe it's just that we don't have a good way to communicating to those that offend the community and that is what needs to be worked out. The forum would seem like a good place for that, as long as it doesn't become a place for personal attacks or misrepresentations.

Sheeps
Jun 19, 2003 18:57
Folks,

When I wrote this last night:

Kax wrote:
I too look forward to the day when winbolo is purged of people who can't behave themselves, and who say things that are unappreciated. People have feelings, and when one person criticizes another, those feelings are bound to be hurt. People who attack others have no business posting in a public forum or, in my opinion, even appearing in public. If you go to #bolo, the forum for mac bolo, you'll note that the players are unfailingly polite to one another, and those who insist on being confrontational, annoying, or idiosyncratic are swiftly punished. Likewise, on rec.games.bolo, the newsgroup for mac bolo, I recall few if any instances of one player flaming another.



I was being very, very ironic. I hoped my statement that "people who attack others have no business . . . even appearing in public" would tip everyone off, but apparently not. The fact that it didn't is precisely the problem, because if you honestly believe that people shouldn't be allowed to express coherent thoughts however they'd like, you should consider living in China. If that's the prevailing view around here, we're in a lot of trouble.

Let me be frank. I spent 4-5 years on mac's #bolo, and I have a hard time recalling a *single day* passing without people flaming each other to pieces. In fact, several of the top players referred to each other in racial slurs. But the fact is that the people who did so were usually very, very good friends and didn't take it at all seriously. It was a form of bonding in fact. Likewise, as sheep noted, rec.games.bolo was host to some of the most impressive flame wars ever to grace the electronic page. In fact, a healthy segment of the population didn't even play bolo, but rather existed solely to rant. They were elegant, literate, witty, and incredibly entertaining flames, and we players loved them.

I found that culture a bit startling at first, but I soon found that it made the game itself, and the atmosphere surrounding it, vibrant and colorful. Not everyone was a jerk -- in fact, the people who flamed the hardest were usually the most interesting guys once you got to know them. They just didn't take themselves too seriously, and neither should we. I've only been playing #winbolo for about three weeks now, but the thing that's struck me most is the gravity of things around here. When people get animated, the channel gets +m'd -- presumably, the only things we're permitted to discuss are those that we don't care too much about. Of course, that's precisely the opposite of how it should be. Does anyone really want to come onto IRC and have every conversation be:

<kax> hello fi, how are you?
<fi> good thanks, you?
<kax> ok. I think I am improving at bolo!
<fi> that's good. It's nice to see progress.
<kax> yes, because I've worked really hard
<fi> see? hard work pays off.
<kax> but I still lose my builder a lot. Saiyan shot it last game.
<saiyan> don't feel bad kax! it happens to everyone!
<kax> I know. Gee, I really like you guys! Do you like me?
<ren> paniqbot map jonnywar

I can say without a doubt that if every conversation were as exciting as that one, I would soon be driven to a life of crime and drugs. It's important to let people be themselves, and that includes having fun verbally. There's a reason that in #bolo, guys have hung out there for years even after they've stopped playing -- that reason is that they've made great friends, and people don't make friends in an environment where they can't be themselves. When people are so disruptive that they threaten the game itself or the posting forum (by flooding, server unlocking, etc.), then ban 'em after warning them. Ultimately, people play winbolo not only because the game is fun, but also because they have a good time messing around with the other players.

Because that's true, I can't think of a time when +m should *ever* be used. That's especially true when, as happened recently, the people having the conversation are having great fun, but the channel operator doesn't approve of the tone of their discussion. I can say from personal experience that nothing ever comes of a +m except people becoming pissed off at the moderator, and questioning why they hang out on #winbolo in the first place. If we're going to talk about "another reason to quit winbolo," mine will be because even after attending law school, playing bolo for many years, writing coherent posts on this forum, and abiding by the rules of the game, I'm muzzled by someone with moderator privileges because he or she doesn't approve of the way I said something. It's arrogant beyond description.

#Winbolo isn't an arranged marriage. Let people be themselves, and if you don't like it, just /ignore them. Deleting posts or making the channel +m is just taking your ball and going home.

Respectfully,

Kax
Jun 19, 2003 22:51
Kax, That wuz one of the best Winbolo speeches I've ever read. U should get a moderator to post that on the front page. Good points too.

-Madd Maxx- *<|:0)
Jun 20, 2003 03:29
alright, you've all made your points, I'm obviously no longer welcome here, so, I shall take my final leave of winbolo ....

Min
Jun 20, 2003 03:34
That was very well put.....i know im a colorful person once in awhile........or all the time......why should i be held down lol....but well in some cases moderation is good......this morning was a good example.....but still.....everythings good.....min will be back in a couple days when his feelings get unhurt from being stepped on

btw min i know you will read this.....nobody asked you to leave......everyone isn't out to get you... there jsut asking for change.......maybe to get the stick out of your ass and lighten up a bit......i know you can be cool and let things slide......you let alot of my shit slide ..... so just chill out and let them fight with each other......it always interesting to sit back and watch them anyways :)
Jun 20, 2003 05:13
I moderated the channel for a second today to stop some VERY racial comments between Suicidjky and skywalker. Honestly, I do not find it entertaining and I am quite positive that it was NOT taken as a joke between very close friends.
Jun 20, 2003 05:26
Fair enough -- I'm not defending racist pissants. But surely the solution was just to /kickban the offender for a day or so; that at least would allow the grownups to keep talking, whereas +m would not.

Kixy
Jun 20, 2003 05:54
I just moderated it for like 30 seconds to stop the heat of the arguement. I said in that time that if they continued, I would kick/ban them.
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