Split starts

Why is it that Winbolo players are so deathly afraid of having split starts? (For you kiddies out there, this means having allies start on opposite corners of a map instead of next to each other.) They happened in mac bolo all the time, and they're an easy way to add some spice to life. You get fewer massive pillwars across the center of maps, there are more opportunities to do creative things, and you actually have to pay attention to potential threats from more than one direction.

It's fine if people don't want to do it all the time, or even most of the time. But in response to the question "Sides?", why can't the answer sometimes be "No"?

I'd appreciate it if people would write in and tell me why they're taboo. I just don't get it.

Kaddyshax

wtf ppl dont like starting on opposite sides of the map!? thats gay. must be newbies.

it's always just been common practice to call sides. I've often thought about playing diagonals or w/e, but it just never comes up and if it does people are like are you joking type attitude.

Sky

I remember back in my Mac bolo days, we wouldn't get onside, we'd just start where we were, and allies would tell each other where they were. But I like starting onside because it puts less emphasis on the randomness of the base run, and more emphasis on the skill and strategy of the game. Yes, a diagonal start would mean you have to stay on your toes and think about 2 different fronts. But you have to do that anyway, when your teammate needs help.

Mad Scout wrote:

I remember back in my Mac bolo days, we wouldn't get onside, we'd just start where we were, and allies would tell each other where they were. But I like starting onside because it puts less emphasis on the randomness of the base run, and more emphasis on the skill and strategy of the game. Yes, a diagonal start would mean you have to stay on your toes and think about 2 different fronts. But you have to do that anyway, when your teammate needs help.

I guess my real complaint has to do with the notion of fronts, and how pervasive they are in games. "Front" tends to equate to "pillwar" in around here (hi Zach!). They're fun to a point, but one pillwar tends to resemble another after awhile, and they're not heavy mental lifting. There are various reasons that spiking is less popular in winbolo than it was in bolo, the foremost being (in my opinion) that you're guaranteed to lose your builder if the other player shoots over the lgm when it's building, which wasn't the case in bolo.

I think split starts would encourage spiking, base raping, and all the chaos that makes life worth living, because if two allies are split at the start, a quick spike or baserape would make an enemy's corner pretty much toast. The bad guy would have to go to the opposite corner to refuel, then come back, by which time he'd be spanked. That's unlike the current situation where you send in a spike, lose your lgm probably, and then the two enemies wander over and take it out. Insert pillwar here.

I guess it's a mixed bag. I think split starts add a fun element of spontaneity to things. On balance, they probably cut down on teamwork, at least at the start, but I think they force you to pay better attention to what's going on in the game, i.e., to notice via pillview what mischief your ally is wreaking. I'm just struck because I haven't played a single split start game in six months of winbolo, and it doesn't seem even to occur to people as a possibility. On the occasions when I've suggested it, people react the same way they would if I told them I were no longer posting to WBN. *grin*

Kax

your lgm+spiking comment sounds interesting----do you think it should be like it is in winbolo (FUCK NO) or have spiking a more-used thig(yayayay)




you be the judge

some interesting points tho.....

FireIce introduced me to the split start just recently. I didn't know it was allowed. I have no problem with a split start whatsoever.

i prefer the sides option.

Kax wrote:

It's fine if people don't want to do it all the time, or even most of the time. But in response to the question "Sides?", why can't the answer sometimes be "No"?

I'd appreciate it if people would write in and tell me why they're taboo. I just don't get it.

when I was around I managed to get people to do split starts once in awhile. Its quite enjoyable. and for that matter ... whatever happend to playing large maps like 100x50 ? ... when was the last time you played 2x2 strict on everand island? .. or mutantis mandis? ... or any of the hundreds of other 100x50 maps. People are just afraid of change, they've all been playing chew toy 3, with the big pillwar in the middle that they don't understand how to play any other way. whatever happened to hyperspiking? .....

Min

Min wrote:

whatever happened to hyperspiking? .....

What's this? Spiking under the influence of cocaine, 50 cups of coffee, speed, DSL?

As opposed to hypospiking? Something you do on a slow connection, or when you just woke up?

Q-mandabomb wrote:

your lgm+spiking comment sounds interesting----do you think it should be like it is in winbolo (FUCK NO) or have spiking a more-used thig(yayayay)




you be the judge

I think the way it is in winbolo is fine. I think that spiking should not be easy for someone to do without risking the life of his lgm.

You wanna come into my house with that crap? Fine with me, but you better be ready to pay the price. Translation: If you're going to cause that much harm to me by putting your pill and your lgm in my quad, you should expect consequences. Stick your neck out, but careful you don't get your head chopped off.

Mad Scout wrote:

I think the way it is in winbolo is fine. I think that spiking should not be easy for someone to do without risking the life of his lgm.

As winbolo relates to bolo, there are subtle inaccuracies, one of which being that lgms take longer to build a pill. In mac bolo, if you waited until an lgm actually built a pill before shooting at the pill to kill the lgm, you'd never once kill one. This obviously affects pillwarring as well. Maybe it's better this way in your opinion, but the effect is to reduce greatly the effectiveness of an alternative to pillwarring. That's not obviously good to my way of thinking. As it is, base raping -- the other main alternative to pillwarring -- is also much less effective because winbolo's base refueling rate is probably 40% higher than it is in mac bolo. It's therefore much easier to operate from only a base or two.

Anyway, there's no reason why spiking wouldn't be dangerous even under mac gameplay. It's just that there you actually have to be good enough to hit the little bugger on the run. Here, you just spray shots in the lgm's general direction and sit back feeling proud. Blah.

Along the lines of what Min said about different map types, I think bolo is also more interesting when it accomodates different playing styles. It's kinda like in Warcraft III where Blizzard tries to balance the warring clans, in Tekken where the combatants are theoretically balanced, etc. To the extent you unbalance gameplay in favor of pillwarring over baseraping and hyperspiking, you make the game less strategic. Variety is valuable in map diversity as well, although people still seem to flock to CT3, which is the same map bolo players gathered 'round in 1996. Imagine playing the same little map for seven years.

Kax

Kax wrote:

As winbolo relates to bolo, there are subtle inaccuracies, one of which being that lgms take longer to build a pill. In mac bolo, if you waited until an lgm actually built a pill before shooting at the pill to kill the lgm, you'd never once kill one. This obviously affects pillwarring as well. Maybe it's better this way in your opinion, but the effect is to reduce greatly the effectiveness of an alternative to pillwarring. That's not obviously good to my way of thinking. As it is, base raping -- the other main alternative to pillwarring -- is also much less effective because winbolo's base refueling rate is probably 40% higher than it is in mac bolo. It's therefore much easier to operate from only a base or two.

The base refuel comment is incorrect. the rate that bases regain ammo and armor is very close to being the correct rate, however the rate of which the base becomes yours after shooting it dead, is very incorrect (the "un-xing" rate)

there is other things in macbolo that make pillwaring alot harder, such as the tank slide, when you get shot in macbolo, your tank is thrown half a tile to a full tile in the opposite direction. imagine trying to scoop pills from a pillline with that? .... it would be, and is harder making pillwaring not as effective, becuase you can't get close to scoop dead pills as easily. Unfortunatly the balance in winbolo is bad, after the last version change, pills get angry faster than they should(or at least they seem to), which makes pillwaring alot more viable, they also shoot too fast.... the list goes on and on, but in the end. it just means people will tend to pillwar alot more than they should. I wonder what all the pillwarriors will do when the game balance finially gets changed? ... *stares at ud and zach*

Kax wrote:

Anyway, there's no reason why spiking wouldn't be dangerous even under mac gameplay. It's just that there you actually have to be good enough to hit the little bugger on the run. Here, you just spray shots in the lgm's general direction and sit back feeling proud. Blah.

I agree completely with that statement. it makes killing lgm's a luck based thing, rather than skill based.

Kax wrote:

Along the lines of what Min said about different map types, I think bolo is also more interesting when it accomodates different playing styles. It's kinda like in Warcraft III where Blizzard tries to balance the warring clans, in Tekken where the combatants are theoretically balanced, etc. To the extent you unbalance gameplay in favor of pillwarring over baseraping and hyperspiking, you make the game less strategic. Variety is valuable in map diversity as well, although people still seem to flock to CT3, which is the same map bolo players gathered 'round in 1996. Imagine playing the same little map for seven years.

ya, whatever happened to playing 4-5 games with the same folks, the first few hyperspikes, the next few a different style, etc .... its way more fun with you mix things up a bit. pillwaring all the time is boring ...

Min

Mad Scout wrote:

I think the way it is in winbolo is fine. I think that spiking should not be easy for someone to do without risking the life of his lgm.

I think winbolo is supposed to clone bolo ... shouldn't we then make an effort to have it made more like bolo? .... if you want a totally different game .. why don't we change the name to wintanks instead?

Min

wonka wrote:

Min wrote:

whatever happened to hyperspiking? .....

What's this? Spiking under the influence of cocaine, 50 cups of coffee, speed, DSL?

:)
hyperspiking is something that can't be explained, you must experiance it.

Min

Comment/ question about bases. Bases refuel themselves at a rate proportional to the number of players in the game, it seems. Bases fill up quick when there are 10 players but slow when there's 2. Was macbolo also like this?

Min wrote:

Kax wrote:

It's fine if people don't want to do it all the time, or even most of the time. But in response to the question "Sides?", why can't the answer sometimes be "No"?

I'd appreciate it if people would write in and tell me why they're taboo. I just don't get it.

when I was around I managed to get people to do split starts once in awhile. Its quite enjoyable. and for that matter ... whatever happend to playing large maps like 100x50 ? ... when was the last time you played 2x2 strict on everand island? .. or mutantis mandis? ... or any of the hundreds of other 100x50 maps. People are just afraid of change, they've all been playing chew toy 3, with the big pillwar in the middle that they don't understand how to play any other way. whatever happened to hyperspiking? .....

Min

I like big maps

hyperspiking rox! (whatever it is)

Acro wrote:

Comment/ question about bases. Bases refuel themselves at a rate proportional to the number of players in the game, it seems. Bases fill up quick when there are 10 players but slow when there's 2. Was macbolo also like this?

Yes it was. I'm sure Min is right that in mac bolo bases stayed x'd longer than they do in winbolo. In my talks with many relatively recent mac boloers, though (bitch, kas mainly), we definitely thought bases refueled more slowly there. But maybe Min is right. Anyway, base raping is just less effective here. Another reason might be (is) that when you shoot a base, any pill within a screen of that base gets pissed off. In mac, a pill would only get heated if you shot a base that was within the pill's range. That matters more than you'd think.

hrmm, neet!

Acro wrote:

Comment/ question about bases. Bases refuel themselves at a rate proportional to the number of players in the game, it seems. Bases fill up quick when there are 10 players but slow when there's 2. Was macbolo also like this?

wow..i never new that

Q, i'm sure you noticed if you ever played practice, a depleted base would fill up slower than death. If bases had a slow refill rate no matter what the number of players, then multiple player games would be damn near impossible.

Acro wrote:

Comment/ question about bases. Bases refuel themselves at a rate proportional to the number of players in the game, it seems. Bases fill up quick when there are 10 players but slow when there's 2. Was macbolo also like this?

yes, its a set rate per certain number of people in the game, I would have to look up the rate to know exactly.

Kax wrote:

Yes it was. I'm sure Min is right that in mac bolo bases stayed x'd longer than they do in winbolo. In my talks with many relatively recent mac boloers, though (bitch, kas mainly), we definitely thought bases refueled more slowly there. But maybe Min is right. Anyway, base raping is just less effective here. Another reason might be (is) that when you shoot a base, any pill within a screen of that base gets pissed off. In mac, a pill would only get heated if you shot a base that was within the pill's range. That matters more than you'd think.

When me and palp were trying to check the exact rate of base refuel we encountered a few issues. becuase of how macbolo's networking worked, sometimes it would put 1 ammo into a base or sometimes it woudl wait longer and put in 3 ammo. so it was very difficult to determine the exact way it refueled, the things we did discover was the total amount over a certain period of time it put in (like I mentioned I'd have to find the exact rate) also, if a base is in the "X" mode you can still get ammo from it, which has a big bearing on how things work, also we determined the un-x rate, and a few other things .. I will have to look it up to post the exact results .. I think that elvis got it close. for the refuel rate itself.

Min